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  #46  
Old 08 Sep 14, 01:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The USSR could produce tanks faster than it could train qualified tankers.
New tanks replaced old tanks, so that over 1,200 old tanks became available every year.
in 1940 alone the USSR produced 1,600 T-25, 780 BT-7, 41 T-40 (amphibious), 115 T-34, 141 KV-1 and 102 KV-2 (2,779 Tanks).
Artillery production was even more impressive.

Clearly Stalin can trade hundreds of obsolete tanks, planes and cannon for alliances.

The same year Germany produced a ridiculous 1,888 tanks (367 Czech 38t). When Bohemia falls Germany loses 19.4% of tank production (even more, because armour plate from Bohemia was used for other tanks, as was steel made with ore from Alsace-Lorraine late in the year).

Ironically Germany is the one who cannot afford to provide Stukas for its allies, since it produced a ridiculous 120 in the 2nd half od 1940 and 1st half of 1941 (the critical time before Barbarossa and after losing many in France, Belgium, Holland and Britain), but Germany did provide some to its allies

Without Romania, Hungary, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia and Italy as allies, Czech industry, French iron ore and time, Germany does not stand a chance in hell against the USSR (with an intact and thriving industry) and its allies.

Soviet subs and planes operating from Poland from the beginning of the war will interrupt Swedish bofors guns, iron and copper ore transport to Germany in the Baltic, forcing ore to be shipped through Norway even in the spring, summer and autumn.
According to German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933 - 1945, by Vajda & Dancey, production figures for the Ju87 during this period were:-

June 1940 - 75, July - 65, August - 65, September - 90, October - 80, November - 100, December - 65, Jan 1941 - 65, Feb.- 90, March - 100, and April - 70.

I haven't got a calculator handy, but I think this adds up to rather more than 120 in total.
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  #47  
Old 08 Sep 14, 01:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
According to German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933 - 1945, by Vajda & Dancey, production figures for the Ju87 during this period were:-

June 1940 - 75, July - 65, August - 65, September - 90, October - 80, November - 100, December - 65, Jan 1941 - 65, Feb.- 90, March - 100, and April - 70.

I haven't got a calculator handy, but I think this adds up to rather more than 120 in total.
I do, my trusty Sharp EL-506D Nuc school calculator from 1980...



That equals 800 six and two thirds times more than Draco claims.
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  #48  
Old 08 Sep 14, 10:59
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Nope, your calculator is also numerically challenged. It's 865 or 7.2 times more than I wrote. Which is clearly wrong, since total production between 1936 and 1944 was 6,500 with the highest production in 1942and Hitler had under 300 Stukas available for the beginning of Barbarossa on June 22, 1941.
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  #49  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Nope, your calculator is also numerically challenged. It's 865 or 7.2 times more than I wrote. Which is clearly wrong, since total production between 1936 and 1944 was 6,500 with the highest production in 1942and Hitler had under 300 Stukas available for the beginning of Barbarossa on June 22, 1941.
Let's see, two authors who actually did research and have been published for a while or you. Who are people here likely to accept as accurate...?
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  #50  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:13
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Nope, your calculator is also numerically challenged. It's 865 or 7.2 times more than I wrote. Which is clearly wrong, since total production between 1936 and 1944 was 6,500 with the highest production in 1942and Hitler had under 300 Stukas available for the beginning of Barbarossa on June 22, 1941.
'Clearly wrong'? On what basis did you reach that conclusion?
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Old 08 Sep 14, 11:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Nope, your calculator is also numerically challenged. It's 865 or 7.2 times more than I wrote. Which is clearly wrong, since total production between 1936 and 1944 was 6,500 with the highest production in 1942and Hitler had under 300 Stukas available for the beginning of Barbarossa on June 22, 1941.
Links? Sources? Actual proof for once? Please.
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  #52  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
David Glantz, an actual historian and expert on the Soviet military would disagree. Maybe you should read Stumbling Colossus.
Soviet production is impressive on paper. The reality is that most of those tanks were unfit for combat due to lack of spares, lack of ammunition, poorly or untrained crews, and a plethora of other problems.

Glantz on pg 182 for example details the Southwestern Front on 22 June 1941.
In small arms they were short:
Rifles 74,206
SMG 45,427
Pistols 80,726
LMG 7,002
HMG 1,375
AAMG 901
82mm mortars 454
120mm mortars 168

Those were shortages.

That front also lacked:

1,301 76mm guns
222 45mm AT guns
303 152mm howitzers
288 122mm howitzers
744 37mm AA guns

Across the board military districts in the Soviet Union were generally below 50% of their established ammunition requirements.

Just how bad off the armor was is shown by the 15th Mechanized corps for example:

This unit started the war on 22 June with:

318 tanks in the 10th Tank division
285 in the 37th Tank division
37 in the 212th Mechanized division
0 in the 8th Tank division
for a total of 640 tanks (mostly BT 7 and T 26)

Just 4 days later the corps was down to 325 and had no remaining artillery.
Two weeks later on 6 July 1941 the corps had 30 remaining tanks. A week later it was obliterated.




Because the Germans produced things like spare parts and the necessary auxiliary vehicles to properly support those tanks in combat. Bohemia won't fall because the Soviets can barely manage to advance against opposition of any sort.



Source. I think your numbers are made up.



Drivel. Establish first how the Soviets can even take these.



Soviet submarines were pathetic. They had the singularly worst submarine service of any major combatant nation. In fact, they lost more submarines than sank ships and the biggest naval vessel sunk by a Soviet sub in WW 2 was a minesweeper. The Soviets overstated tonnage sunk by their submarines by almost a factor of 3 when checked against Western records of ships sunk.
So, this to is unsupported drivel.
You quote shortages, a rather strange figure.
There were more Soviet planes, MGs, sub Mgs, AT cannon, field cannon, fuel, tanks, trucks, munitions, etc, on the border than their German counterpart. The problem is that they were promptly destroyed or isolated by artillery and air attack. Without the fuel, trucks, ammo, etc, the remaining tanks were useless over most of the front. Had the Soviet air force struck before the LW did and caught a thousand of planes on the ground, Germany would have been in deep trouble.

It was precisely army group south which lost 1/4 of its tanks in the first week (dooming it for the rest of the war), despite the shortages You mention and the poor Soviet air support. Kleist encountered a truly formidable force, much superior to his own (despite Germany having a year to produce tanks, planes, munitions, etc, with resources from a huge Reich and fighting in ideal terrain for tanks).

Kleist fighting in Bohemia in Sept 1940 with a few tanks, little fuel and ammo in lousy terrain for tanks would have been wiped out in days.

During Barbarossa tank production in Kharkov, Leningrad, etc, dropped considerably as the Germans attacked these cities and most of the industry in Ukraine, Belorussia, etc, was lost or relocated without producing for weeks. The same would happen to Germany in this scenario, but Soviet industry would thrive.

Last edited by Draco; 08 Sep 14 at 11:29..
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  #53  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You quote shortages, a rather strange figure.
Not when the point is to show you that the Soviet Union's massive production wasn't even enough to equip their own forces, let alone allow them to give away well-maintained vehicles and guns.
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  #54  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:37
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Stalin did not invade the Balkan and was not advancing to the Alsace for the following reasons:

1)it was militarily impossible : in 1941,the Soviet mechanized corps fell apart when they advanced to the border,most of them without having seen ONE German (the offensive capability of the RKKA in 1941 has been discussed on this forum 2 years ago).

2)it would be also very dangerous : it could create a Holy Alliance of the capitalist countries against the SU : after WWI,the West tried to wring the neck of the SU,aided by Germany ,thus,everything that could cause an armistice between B+F /Germany had to be avoided ,and an invasion of Europe would trigger an alliance between the West and Germany .
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  #55  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post

It was precisely army group south which lost 1/4 of its tanks in the first week (dooming it for the rest of the war), despite the shortages You mention and the poor Soviet air support. .
Totally irrelevant,because as every one knows (of course you are the exception),most tank losses do not happen because of enemy resistance, but because of wear and tear.

I could also ask for a proof that AGS was doomed but as usual it would appear that you are confounding proof and imagination
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  #56  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:45
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Originally Posted by Anacreon View Post
Not when the point is to show you that the Soviet Union's massive production wasn't even enough to equip their own forces, let alone allow them to give away well-maintained vehicles and guns.
The Soviets intended to provide many more planes, tanks, MGs, mortars, cannon, etc, per division than the Germans and were doing that for a much larger army than the WM also in the Caucasus, Finnish border, central Russia, Siberia and eastermost Russia (near the Pacific, which westerners mistakenly include in Siberia).

In contrast Germany used a ridiculous number of the same armament (often inferior) per division, relying mostly on manpower and in HItler's mind willpower.
That is why German soldiers had to rely on captured sub MGs, etc, to survive.

The small number of completely obsolete I-15s, tanks, cannon, etc, which Stalin is providing in order to create trust and gain powerful allies is the best possible investment, since these nations' armament far exceed the armament provided and the quality of the allies' troops is better (it's a force multiplier).
The simple fact that Stalin is facing first the thousands of Romanian cannon and the large Romanian army and only months later the thousands of German cannon and the huge WM in their own countries makes a world of difference, compared to having to face both simultaneously in Soviet soil.
Perhaps as important is SOviet industry is the fact that SOviet agricultural production remains intact, while German agriculture in Poland, etc, suffers from the first day of the war. The Germans captured 10 million horses and huge numbers of cattle, fowl, sheep, grain fields, etc, in the Ukraine. In this case it is the Soviets and their allies who will capture German horses, etc,

When Poles begin the liberation of their country, Polish pilots and troops in Britain will join the fight in their country with British planes delivered in Murmansk. The French Niemen squadron also does well over Germany.

Last edited by Draco; 08 Sep 14 at 12:01..
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  #57  
Old 08 Sep 14, 12:07
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Totally irrelevant,because as every one knows (of course you are the exception),most tank losses do not happen because of enemy resistance, but because of wear and tear.

I could also ask for a proof that AGS was doomed but as usual it would appear that you are confounding proof and imagination
Strangely, there was more wear and tear in one week traveling a short distance in a sea of of tanks (including hundreds of T-34s and KV-1, more than in any other sector) than when traveling quite far to Nikolaef and back to Kiev, then to Stalingrad and down to the Caucasus. Army groups center and north also traveled a longer distance with fewer losses in one week.
There was also supposedly more wear and tear in that week than in the very long distance that Rommel traveled in the desert. T-34 do cause a lot of wear and tear.
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Old 08 Sep 14, 12:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
(near the Pacific, which westerners mistakenly include in Siberia).
That's
1. Irrelevant
2. A function of historical usage, when 'Siberia' referred to all Russian land East of the Urals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Soviets intended to provide many more planes, tanks, MGs, mortars, cannon, etc, per division than the Germans
And the historical record shows how wonderfully these divisions performed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The small number of completely obsolete I-15s, tanks, cannon, etc, which Stalin is providing in order to create trust and gain powerful allies is the best possible investment, since these nations' armament far exceed the armament provided and the quality of the allies' troops is better (it's a force multiplier).
So, not only are they bribing nations that have little long-term interest in assisting the Soviets, they're also doing so with obsolete, poorly-maintained and entirely worn out vehicles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The simple fact that Stalin is facing first the thousands of Romanian cannon and the large Romanian army and only months later the thousands of German cannon and the huge WM in their own countries makes a world of difference, compared to having to face both simultaneously in Soviet soil.
Yes, they'll just stall and get horribly mauled, rather than being massacred right off the bat.
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  #59  
Old 08 Sep 14, 12:17
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Originally Posted by Anacreon View Post
That's
1. Irrelevant
2. A function of historical usage, when 'Siberia' referred to all Russian land East of the Urals.



And the historical record shows how wonderfully these divisions performed.



So, not only are they bribing nations that have little long-term interest in assisting the Soviets, they're also doing so with obsolete, poorly-maintained and entirely worn out vehicles?



Yes, they'll just stall and get horribly mauled, rather than being massacred right off the bat.

If you remove the air support (as in Yelnia, Tikhvin, Tula, etc,), some divisions performed better than German divisions.
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Old 08 Sep 14, 12:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
When Poles begin the liberation of their country, Polish pilots and troops in Britain will join the fight in their country with British planes delivered in Murmansk. The French Niemen squadron also does well over Germany.
You don't notice anything wacky about Poles desperate to fight for the Soviets to liberate their homeland in 1940?
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