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  #31  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:36
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You will not find Hirohito's order to attack PH. Churchill's order for Dieppe, Hitler's order to exterminate the Jews either.
Stalin had daily contact with Voroshilov, which seldom included written orders.
Most orders were not written.
The belated order to abandon Kiev was transmitted orally, when Kirponos demanded a written order (because other commanders had just been executed for abandoning their positions) the order took another day to arrive.
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  #32  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post

Russians walked to and fought successfully in Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Germany, France and looted Paris in the 19th century. A much stronger and more mechanized army has absolutely no problem taking Bohemia, Switzerland, Alsace, etc, from a recovering WM without fuel and ammo.



And the Emperor Barbarossa was going to Jeruzalem, Pizarro conquered Mexico and Caesar France and Belgium (thus Graziani could easily go to Amsterdam),and,blahblah,blahblah .
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  #33  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You will not find Hirohito's order to attack PH. Churchill's order for Dieppe, Hitler's order to exterminate the Jews either.
Stalin had daily contact with Voroshilov, which seldom included written orders.
Most orders were not written.
The belated order to abandon Kiev was transmitted orally, when Kirponos demanded a written order (because other commanders had just been executed for abandoning their positions) the order took another day to arrive.
If there was no written order to send the worst troops to Mexico,how do you know that there was an oral order ? Were you eaves-dropping at the door of the Kremlin ?
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  #34  
Old 07 Sep 14, 12:00
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When all else fails, make it up...
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  #35  
Old 07 Sep 14, 12:03
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[QUOTE=Draco;288788

We all consider ourselves ultimate experts and we all ignore much more than we know.[/QUOTE]


He is using the pluralis majestatis .
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  #36  
Old 07 Sep 14, 12:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
He is using the pluralis majestatis .
Yeah I saw that. Lol.
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  #37  
Old 07 Sep 14, 15:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You will not find Hirohito's order to attack PH. Churchill's order for Dieppe, Hitler's order to exterminate the Jews either.
Stalin had daily contact with Voroshilov, which seldom included written orders.
Most orders were not written.
The belated order to abandon Kiev was transmitted orally, when Kirponos demanded a written order (because other commanders had just been executed for abandoning their positions) the order took another day to arrive.
Actually, there is considerable written evidence, provided by Churchill himself, that not only was he the driving force behind the Dieppe raid, but also that he personally examined the plans for the raid in advance.

This is readily available, in the public domain.
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  #38  
Old 07 Sep 14, 15:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
If there was no written order to send the worst troops to Mexico,how do you know that there was an oral order ? Were you eaves-dropping at the door of the Kremlin ?
How are assassins in mufti trained with ice picks "worst troops"?
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  #39  
Old 07 Sep 14, 17:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Regarding Hungary. Again, There is nothing Germany can do in that area in May and June. Hungary was hostile towards Romania and is not going to reject armament and an alliance when it can capture considerable land. The second Vienna award was months away and it did not include Transylvania proper. Dozens of Soviet divisions invading Romania while Germany is busy cannot be ignored.
Yeah, I am sure Hungary wants to become a battlefield between Germany and USSR. I don't understand where you get this idea that if X Soviet division prance into Romania suddenly all historical allies of Germany will flip-flop into the communist camp and start invading every country around them...
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  #40  
Old 07 Sep 14, 17:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
I demand to see the order of Stalin to Worochilov:"use the oldest tanks and the worst troops to invade Poland,so that Hitler will think that the Soviet Army is useless".

If you can't produce this order, this will prove that as usuall you are living in phantasialand .
There must be one hell of a lot of "...worst troops and tanks..." in the Red Army seeing as how the invasion of Poland involved more than 40 divisions many of them either Tank or Mechanized, with over 5,000 tanks, about 6,000 artillery pieces, and thousands of aircraft.
The Poles did fight back and both the Red Army and Polish Army took thousands of dead in casualties.
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  #41  
Old 07 Sep 14, 17:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Yeah, I am sure Hungary wants to become a battlefield between Germany and USSR. I don't understand where you get this idea that if X Soviet division prance into Romania suddenly all historical allies of Germany will flip-flop into the communist camp and start invading every country around them...
Or how Stalin is going to give Hungary a thousand artillery pieces, hundreds of tanks when that would mean disbanding several tank divisions and stripping dozens of divisions of most or all of their artillery and that this stuff will just magically appear in Hungary in a matter of days when the Red Army itself often lacks the equipment to move those guns themselves.
Then, Hungary by more PFM suddenly two days after receiving all this stuff (junk?) has it all assigned to units, ammunition supplied to it, crews trained in its use, and launches a major offensive.
That is just more delusional drivel using nothing but handwavium and PFM, those magical substances that allow the impossible to be possible in Wackyland.
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  #42  
Old 07 Sep 14, 18:38
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Iran is a long shot, but I am seeing little difficulty with Romania.
Stalin could have done it in 1940, but the sudden fall of France took the USSR by surprise, it would have to have been a Fall operation.
The Red Army didn't do spontaneous operations very well.
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  #43  
Old 07 Sep 14, 23:30
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The USSR could produce tanks faster than it could train qualified tankers.
New tanks replaced old tanks, so that over 1,200 old tanks became available every year.
in 1940 alone the USSR produced 1,600 T-25, 780 BT-7, 41 T-40 (amphibious), 115 T-34, 141 KV-1 and 102 KV-2 (2,779 Tanks).
Artillery production was even more impressive.

Clearly Stalin can trade hundreds of obsolete tanks, planes and cannon for alliances.

The same year Germany produced a ridiculous 1,888 tanks (367 Czech 38t). When Bohemia falls Germany loses 19.4% of tank production (even more, because armour plate from Bohemia was used for other tanks, as was steel made with ore from Alsace-Lorraine late in the year).

Ironically Germany is the one who cannot afford to provide Stukas for its allies, since it produced a ridiculous 120 in the 2nd half od 1940 and 1st half of 1941 (the critical time before Barbarossa and after losing many in France, Belgium, Holland and Britain), but Germany did provide some to its allies

Without Romania, Hungary, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia and Italy as allies, Czech industry, French iron ore and time, Germany does not stand a chance in hell against the USSR (with an intact and thriving industry) and its allies.

Soviet subs and planes operating from Poland from the beginning of the war will interrupt Swedish bofors guns, iron and copper ore transport to Germany in the Baltic, forcing ore to be shipped through Norway even in the spring, summer and autumn.

Last edited by Draco; 07 Sep 14 at 23:47..
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  #44  
Old 08 Sep 14, 00:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The USSR could produce tanks faster than it could train qualified tankers.
New tanks replaced old tanks, so that over 1,200 old tanks became available every year.
in 1940 alone the USSR produced 1,600 T-25, 780 BT-7, 41 T-40 (amphibious), 115 T-34, 141 KV-1 and 102 KV-2 (2,779 Tanks).
Artillery production was even more impressive.

Clearly Stalin can trade hundreds of obsolete tanks, planes and cannon for alliances.
David Glantz, an actual historian and expert on the Soviet military would disagree. Maybe you should read Stumbling Colossus.
Soviet production is impressive on paper. The reality is that most of those tanks were unfit for combat due to lack of spares, lack of ammunition, poorly or untrained crews, and a plethora of other problems.

Glantz on pg 182 for example details the Southwestern Front on 22 June 1941.
In small arms they were short:
Rifles 74,206
SMG 45,427
Pistols 80,726
LMG 7,002
HMG 1,375
AAMG 901
82mm mortars 454
120mm mortars 168

Those were shortages.

That front also lacked:

1,301 76mm guns
222 45mm AT guns
303 152mm howitzers
288 122mm howitzers
744 37mm AA guns

Across the board military districts in the Soviet Union were generally below 50% of their established ammunition requirements.

Just how bad off the armor was is shown by the 15th Mechanized corps for example:

This unit started the war on 22 June with:

318 tanks in the 10th Tank division
285 in the 37th Tank division
37 in the 212th Mechanized division
0 in the 8th Tank division
for a total of 640 tanks (mostly BT 7 and T 26)

Just 4 days later the corps was down to 325 and had no remaining artillery.
Two weeks later on 6 July 1941 the corps had 30 remaining tanks. A week later it was obliterated.


Quote:
The same year Germany produced a ridiculous 1,888 tanks (367 Czech 38t). When Bohemia falls Germany loses 19.4% of tank production (even more, because armour plate from Bohemia was used for other tanks, as was steel made with ore from Alsace-Lorraine late in the year).
Because the Germans produced things like spare parts and the necessary auxiliary vehicles to properly support those tanks in combat. Bohemia won't fall because the Soviets can barely manage to advance against opposition of any sort.

Quote:
Ironically Germany is the one who cannot afford to provide Stukas for its allies, since it produced a ridiculous 120 in the 2nd half od 1940 and 1st half of 1941 (the critical time before Barbarossa and after losing many in France, Belgium, Holland and Britain), but Germany did provide some to its allies
Source. I think your numbers are made up.

Quote:
Without Romania, Hungary, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia and Italy as allies, Czech industry, French iron ore and time, Germany does not stand a chance in hell against the USSR (with an intact and thriving industry) and its allies.
Drivel. Establish first how the Soviets can even take these.

Quote:
Soviet subs and planes operating from Poland from the beginning of the war will interrupt Swedish bofors guns, iron and copper ore transport to Germany in the Baltic, forcing ore to be shipped through Norway even in the spring, summer and autumn.
Soviet submarines were pathetic. They had the singularly worst submarine service of any major combatant nation. In fact, they lost more submarines than sank ships and the biggest naval vessel sunk by a Soviet sub in WW 2 was a minesweeper. The Soviets overstated tonnage sunk by their submarines by almost a factor of 3 when checked against Western records of ships sunk.
So, this to is unsupported drivel.
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  #45  
Old 08 Sep 14, 00:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
I demand to see the order of Stalin to Worochilov:"use the oldest tanks and the worst troops to invade Poland,so that Hitler will think that the Soviet Army is useless".

If you can't produce this order, this will prove that as usuall you are living in phantasialand .
Yeah, I'd like to see that, too.

But it's not going to happen.
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