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  #1  
Old 05 Sep 14, 02:26
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Stalin invades Romania & Iran, instead of Finland

Finland had little to offer the USSR and Stalin invaded it at the worst possible time. In contrast, Romania was the only European country other than the USSR which could supply Germany with large quantities of oil and it had a large army, which it would be much easier to defeat alone than if it were allied with Germany.
Iran had a weak army and invaluable location (access to the Indian Ocean, Iraq, etc,) and it was another potential supplier of oil for Hitler.
Accordingly, Stalin invades Romania on May 20, 1940 when France cannot come to Romania's aid and the German army is busy in France.

Stalin can invade Romania from Poland, Ukraine and the black Sea. Romania's airforce is no match for the obsolete but massive Soviet air force.
Timoshenko advances with a half million men, 4,000 cannon and 2,000 tanks and planes from Poland, Zhukov advances from Kiev with an equal force and Rokossovsky advances along the Black sea coast with an equal force and heavy naval support.
The airfields, railroad hubs, Ploesti and Bucharest are bombed from the first day.
On May 21 Stalin contacts Hungary and offers a non aggression pact and armament for Hungary, should it declare war on Romania within 3 days and occupy Romanian territory within 2 weeks. Stalin makes the same offer for Bulgaria to occupy territory in SE Romania and for Yugoslavia to occupy territory in SW Romania. Initially Bulgaria and Yugoslavia refuse, but Hungary accepts and declares war on Romania on May 23. Hungary receives 1,000 field guns, ammunition, 150 tanks and 300 I-15 fighters and promptly advances into Transylvania. When Bulgaria and Yugoslavia see the Hungarian success, they accept also and declare war on June 3 and 5 respectively.

Hitler and Mussolini are enraged, but there is nothing they can do with the German army engaged in France and the Italian army engaged in Egypt and they need oil from the USSR more than ever.

Rokossovsky advances faster than Timoshenko and Zhukov and takes Constanta within 2 weeks. Attacked from all sides, under cosntant bombing, suffering heavy casualties and with Rokossovski's force advancing toward Bucharest, the king capitulates on June 25.

By 2 July, 1940 Stalin has massed 300,000 men, 1,000 planes and tanks along the Irani border under Buddyoni and a week after Romania capitulates Rokossovski's force embarks to the Caucasus to reinforce the invasion of Iran.
On July 5 Iran is invaded and the Soviets advance rapidly. The British send 2 Indian divisions to defend the refinery in Abadan and the closest oil fields.
Teheran falls in 3 weeks and Soviet forces encounter the British forces on August 20. Stalin knows that Churchill cannot afford to declare war on the USSR and needs oil, Stalin attacks the British troops on August 22. Churchill orders yet another evacuation on August 27.

In September Stalin stops oil, grain and mineral flow to Germany and invades Slovakia and Bohemia-Moravia. Stalin offers armament, oil, grain, etc, to Yugoslavia and Hungary to occupy Austrian territory and Yugoslavia also Italian territory.
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  #2  
Old 05 Sep 14, 03:34
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Guns,tanks, fighters

Proofs that the SU had these guns,tanks,fighters?

Proofs that the Soviet railways could transport them to Hungary ?

Proofs that the Hungarians could use these guns,tanks and aircraft ?

And : proofs that the Red Army was capable to invade Romania and Iran ?


Another baron von Münchhausen tale .
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  #3  
Old 05 Sep 14, 05:29
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So, there is no Winter War...

Some preliminaries: Rokossovsky is in the Gulag in early 1940 so he ain't showing up for anything.

Here's how I see this: The Red Army is pulled out of Poland for this.

Hungary tells the Soviets they won't get involved as Germany presses them with the threat of invasion too and Hungary is far more friendly with Germany than the Soviets. The declare neutrality and mobilize to defend the country.

The Soviet invasion doesn't go well with heavy losses and lots of chaos as the poorly trained and often ill-equipped units flounder forward into Romania. Only sheer numbers, constantly needing reinforcement, allow the Red Army to press forward.

By early June the Wehrmacht has started to redeploy many units in the West to the East. The German build up in Poland has the Soviet high command very worried as their forces there are weak comparatively being engaged in Romania.

By July 1940 the Germans are massing in strength in the East. Hitler sends two full panzer divisions and two full motorized divisions to North Africa and over runs Egypt with the Italians. For all intents the Mediterranean is an Axis sea now.

There is no Battle of Britain. Britain is on the ropes and Hitler leaves that mess for later.

By August the Red Army holds Romania and Iraq. The Germans and Italians are in Egypt and moving to secure oil fields in Iraq and Kuwait. The British are pulling back to Africa having very little on hand to do anything about this. With the Mediterranean in Axis hands it is possible to ship oil from the Middle East to Germany alleviating the need for Romania.

The Early German build up in the East allows the Germans to invade in early 1941 and overrun Western Russia pretty much like they did historically. Without Romania in the planning the push South is ignored and Moscow falls in the late summer of 1941 to the Germans.
Leningrad likewise falls shortly thereafter cut off from any chance of relief.

With big chunks of the Red Army in poor positions to stop the German invasion Russia loses its war and comes to an armistice. The Germans turn on Britain their remaining enemy. They too end up agreeing to a peace but a more generous one.
The US stomps Japan in the Pacific but never gets involved in Europe. There is a German- UN (British / US / Russia) World War 3 in the 1950's and Germany is nuked out of existence.

See, I can write fantasy too!
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  #4  
Old 05 Sep 14, 06:02
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The Soviets advance rapidly into iran - on one rail line that could handle one freight train per day.
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Old 05 Sep 14, 06:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Finland had little to offer the USSR and Stalin invaded it at the worst possible time. In contrast, Romania was the only European country other than the USSR which could supply Germany with large quantities of oil and it had a large army, which it would be much easier to defeat alone than if it were allied with Germany.
Stalin attacked Finland in 1939. He did not succeed in "invading" Finland, at least not until 1944. Are you talking about 1939 or 1944?


Quote:
Iran had a weak army and invaluable location (access to the Indian Ocean, Iraq, etc,) and it was another potential supplier of oil for Hitler.
Umm, the Soviet Union DID invade Iran, in August 1941. The Red Army occupied the north part and the Indian Army occupied the south part.

Quote:
Accordingly, Stalin invades Romania on May 20, 1940 when France cannot come to Romania's aid and the German army is busy in France.
Umm, the Soviet Union DID invade Romania. In June 1940, following an ultimatum, the USSR invaded Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, per the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

The rest of your post demonstrates that you are ignorant of the political, diplomatic, economic, or military realities of the different "characters" in your charade. Another time, you might check the facts before you get so carried away. You might even use the SEARCH function. Romania and the machinations that led to Antonescu's rise have been discussed at some length in this forum. So has the invasion of Iran and establishment of the Persian Corridor.

It's all there, if you bother to look. Doing so might help you appear to be something more than a crackpot.

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  #6  
Old 05 Sep 14, 06:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post


Guns,tanks, fighters

Proofs that the SU had these guns,tanks,fighters?

Proofs that the Soviet railways could transport them to Hungary ?

Proofs that the Hungarians could use these guns,tanks and aircraft ?

And : proofs that the Red Army was capable to invade Romania and Iran ?


Another baron von Münchhausen tale .
Good Point. The first two paragraphs were - plausible. Then -Hungary rearms in two days...with soviet equipment..

Hungary had been promised and received half of Transylvania for remaining allied to Germany. They had no reason to support this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vienna_Award
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Old 05 Sep 14, 11:58
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Invading does not mean occupying a whole nation. Germany invaded Belgium in 1914 and never occupied the whole country in WW I. I am talking about the winter war 1939-40 not taking place, so Finland remains neutral.

Stalin is invading Romania on 20 May, 1940. Long before the second Vienna award (30 August).

Hungary had a well equipped army to fight Romania with the USSR and had invaded part of Czechoslovakia with Hitler. The armament it receives simply boosts its capabilities and is intended to inspire trust and an additional incentive to attack Romania.

Hungary had an old rivalry with Romania. 300 I-15s can fly there from Poland and advancing from Poland and from Hungary, the armies join after a couple of days.
If there is anything the USSR has is old tanks and guns.

Of course the USSR can invade Romania and Iran, it invaded a good part of Romaina in 1940 and Iran in 1941, while it was fighting for its life in Barbarossa. The USSR can invade all of Romania alone, it is inviting Hungary, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia simply to expedite the campaign, reduce Soviet casualties and create allies in the area, creating precedent for the eventual invasions of Austria and Turkey.

Rokossovski's army advances faster along the coast because it encounters fewer mountains, has excellent naval gun support and is better supplied by sea. Once Constanta falls, Romania is isolated, surrounded by multiple enemies.

Rokossovski is obviously released from prison and sent to fight as he was when war broke out. It takes an order from Stalin, who is directing the show.

Germany cannot afford to fight France and the USSR simultaneously, especially without oil, grain, manganese and chromium from Romania and the USSR. So Germany concentrates on France. If Germany sends troops to Poland in June, Stalin simply cuts off supplies altogether in June.
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Old 05 Sep 14, 12:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Invading does not mean occupying a whole nation. Germany invaded Belgium in 1914 and never occupied the whole country in WW I. I am talking about the winter war 1939-40 not taking place, so Finland remains neutral.

Stalin is invading Romania on 20 May, 1940. Long before the second Vienna award (30 August).

Hungary had a well equipped army to fight Romania with the USSR and had invaded part of Czechoslovakia with Hitler. The armament it receives simply boosts its capabilities and is intended to inspire trust and an additional incentive to attack Romania.

Hungary had an old rivalry with Romania. 300 I-15s can fly there from Poland and advancing from Poland and from Hungary, the armies join after a couple of days.
If there is anything the USSR has is old tanks and guns.

Of course the USSR can invade Romania and Iran, it invaded a good part of Romaina in 1940 and Iran in 1941, while it was fighting for its life in Barbarossa. The USSR can invade all of Romania alone, it is inviting Hungary, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia simply to expedite the campaign, reduce Soviet casualties and create allies in the area, creating precedent for the eventual invasions of Austria and Turkey.

Rokossovski's army advances faster along the coast because it encounters fewer mountains, has excellent naval gun support and is better supplied by sea. Once Constanta falls, Romania is isolated, surrounded by multiple enemies.Rokossovski is obviously released from prison and sent to fight as he was when war broke out. It takes an order from Stalin, who is directing the show.
Germany cannot afford to fight France and the USSR simultaneously, especially without oil, grain, manganese and chromium from Romania and the USSR. So Germany concentrates on France. If Germany sends troops to Poland in June, Stalin simply cuts off supplies altogether in June.
General R was still fitting in new stainless steel teeth

An invasion by the USSR into Romania has some plausibility, but Hungary would stay on the sidelines. They had already been promised the Second Vienna award.

Not a bad premise, though. You are improving...
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  #9  
Old 05 Sep 14, 14:42
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The second Vienna award is a promise that may be kept. Watching the USSR invade your hostile neighbor and refusing to receive armament and oil to attack a beleaguered Romania with the possibility of capturing some of Transylvania proper (not the peripheral territory of the award) is very unlikely indeed.

Stalin does not murder the Polish officers, but keeps them in Poland (training Polish troops) and arms them for a counter attack to liberate Poland when Stalin invades Bohemia-Moravia.

The day after Stalin invades Slovakia-Bohemia-Moravia and cuts off supplies to Germany in September, Stalin offers Italy a million barrels of oil, plus grain chromium and manganese (which Germany is not receiving now) and air support invading the Italian part of Switzerland, part of Tyrol and part of Bavaria (up to and including Munich), while Yugoslavia, Hungary and the USSR also invade Austria. Should Italy refuse, the USSR will supply armament, oil and air support for Yugoslavia to invade Italy and for Greece (which is quite angry after Mussolini torpedoes a Greek cruiser) to invade Albania (the only source of oil for the Italian air force) and the Dodecanese.

Italy desperately needs the oil and cannot afford to fight Greece, Yugoslavia, the USSR and Britain simultaneously, so it has to comply and turn its back on Germany (just as it did in WW I and in 1943), which is facing a host of enemies and has no imported oil, grain, etc, Mussolini pulls out of Egypt and sues for peace with Britain after invading Austria.

After occupying Bohemia Moravia, Stalin invades Austria (together with Italy, Hungary and Yugoslavia) and Switzerland-Bavaria (together with Italy).

In November Stalin offers Greece oil and armament to invade Cyprus and he offers the same for Bulgaria to attack Turkey together with the USSR. Turkey capitulates in January 1941. So the uSSR controls the Black Sea. Syria is invaded in February 1941.

In months Bulgaria, Hungary and Yugoslavia have more than doubled their territory. Germany is short of supplies, has lost part of Poland, Austria, Bavaria and the crucial industry of Bohemia-Moravia and is facing a strong USSR with several strong allies positioned in Bohemia, Poland and Switzerland.

Last edited by Draco; 05 Sep 14 at 15:09..
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Old 05 Sep 14, 14:59
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A lot of nonsense: Italy invading Switserland,Austria and Bavaria Why not the US?
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Old 05 Sep 14, 15:11
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Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
A lot of nonsense: Italy invading Switserland,Austria and Bavaria Why not the US?
Because the US are not adjacent, do not have a tiny population, do not have lousy terrain for Panzers and are not under attack by the USSR, Hungary and Yugoslavia.
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Old 05 Sep 14, 15:55
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Another Draco thread, another posse of posters beating Draco like a rented mule.
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Old 05 Sep 14, 16:03
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A lot of nonsense: Italy invading Switserland,Austria and Bavaria Why not the US?
The Italians are simply taking their time . Much of US cuisine is Italian. The US wine industry remains basically Italian. Conquer the palate and you conquer the person .
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Old 05 Sep 14, 16:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
A lot of nonsense: Italy invading Switserland,Austria and Bavaria Why not the US?
The Italians are invading the US, one Mafioso immigrant at a time...

The Germans are as well as there are more Americans of German decent than Germans in Germany in 1939...
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Old 05 Sep 14, 16:27
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Another Draco thread, another posse of posters beating Draco like a rented mule.
Another of dozens of posts completely devoid of content.

In May 1940 Stalin not only had the largest army, more tanks and planes than the rest of the world put together, he also was a critical grain, oil and mineral producer and he controlled strong communist parties throughout the world (including Britain).

Fortunately, instead of using his resources wisely, Stalin assisted Hitler in wiping out the Polish army and intelligentsia and in building up his industry an economy with Soviet resources and with Soviet help to bypass the British blockage (Stalin sold British rubber to Hitler, etc,). Stalin also created unnecessary enemies by invading Finland and only a useless part of Romania, just enough to upset Romania and force it to become Germany's ally.
Had Stalin created allies, instead of enemies and invaded all of Romania with these allies (eliminating a strong enemy), left neutral Finland alone and stopped supplying and started fighting Germany with help from Poles, Hungarians, Yugoslavs and Italians. Hitler would not have stood a chance.

When France capitulated Germany had a ridiculous number of primitive tanks and was short of ammo, etc, It was the year of grace with plenty of Soviet resources and help from Romania, Hungary, Finland and Italy that put the USSR in deep trouble during Barbarossa.

I only discussed Britain in regard to Abadan. However, as soon as the USSR attacks Germany (Bohemia-Moravia) and rearms the Poles to liberate their country and forces Italy to turn back on Germany, Britian will seek an alliance with Stalin.

Last edited by Draco; 05 Sep 14 at 17:41..
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