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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #61  
Old 08 Sep 14, 23:56
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while you do that Persephone, add up the number of flour mills in Idaho, which has roughly the same population as - the Gaza Strip.

In 2010 the al-Badr family patched their mill back together after it was - tank shelled. Now it looks like they finally got blasted out of business.

No flour. Bread is a staple in Gaza.
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  #62  
Old 09 Sep 14, 00:10
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
while you do that Persephone, add up the number of flour mills in Idaho, which has roughly the same population as - the Gaza Strip.

In 2010 the al-Badr family patched their mill back together after it was - tank shelled. Now it looks like they finally got blasted out of business.

No flour. Bread is a staple in Gaza.
Then the al-Badr family should sue Hamas.
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  #63  
Old 09 Sep 14, 00:35
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
Then the al-Badr family should sue Hamas.
Assuming you aren't just trying to 'get my goat; again, I'm prepared to give you a rational;, honest response.

As I pointed out last time I got showered with sarcasm,- you don't scare me- Sal.
call it, please.
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  #64  
Old 09 Sep 14, 00:37
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
Then the al-Badr family should sue Hamas.
It is highly unlikely that Hamas would use a grain or flour facility as a 'command centre'. Grain and flour dust is highly explosive. If you have ever seen a grain elevator go up in flames, you would know why.

the Al Badr mill was shelled in 2010. The IDF claimed it was used for sniper fire, and was shelled by tanks only. Then al Badr released a video showing he UN defusing an unexploded -500 LB bomb in the mill.

In 2009 John Kerry got Israel to back down on the ban against pasta in th e Gaza strip. Al Badr mills has continued to mill durum into pasta flour.

However, they appear to have 'gotten a message this time'. Mills been damaged beyond repair.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=62832
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  #65  
Old 09 Sep 14, 03:27
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Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
But Israel never got the peace, why should they get the land?
Yes, that's it.

Another aspect in the overall political stance of the Palestinians that seems childish to me - if anybody doesn't like the word, you can replace it with "hopelessly unrealistic" - is the following.

I used to play wargames, also with a terribly complicated rule set which made controversies pretty probable. I remember a player who would calculate his odds, then roll the dice... and if the outcome was unfavorable to him, he would suddenly remember an obscure rule that, if applicable, would overturn the whole situation.
After he had chosen to take his chances and roll the dice.

That's the Palestinian attitude. They, and the Arab states that were their patrons before them, repeatedly chose to roll the dice in war. They thought they were stronger and more numerous, better placed, having better chances. And they lost, they lost, they lost, they lost.

They first decided they would settle the issue by the barrel of the gun - and now that the guns have spoken, now that their repeated attempts for a solution based on force and violence have failed, they have changed their minds and they whine with the UNO, the International Court of Justice, the international community, etc., that they want a solution based on justice and fairness.

A bit late.
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  #66  
Old 09 Sep 14, 07:26
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Which logic are the Russian forum members using which is applicable here? I have not been following their discussions, yet another highly nationalistic set of threads did not appeal.
"right makes unlimited might, and vice versa"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...infrastructure.

Its interesting that the Al-Badhr mill gets repeatedly targeted, and the other four flour mills in Gaza don't.

The mill was a symbol of progress under the British mandate ,when Gaza city was 80,000 people. Basic food industries have to , somehow, be set off limits, unless there is proof that they are used as " terrorist sites." Highly unlikely in the case of a flour mill.
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  #67  
Old 09 Sep 14, 07:49
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Yes, that's it.

Another aspect in the overall political stance of the Palestinians that seems childish to me - if anybody doesn't like the word, you can replace it with "hopelessly unrealistic" - is the following.

I used to play wargames, also with a terribly complicated rule set which made controversies pretty probable. I remember a player who would calculate his odds, then roll the dice... and if the outcome was unfavorable to him, he would suddenly remember an obscure rule that, if applicable, would overturn the whole situation.
After he had chosen to take his chances and roll the dice.

That's the Palestinian attitude. They, and the Arab states that were their patrons before them, repeatedly chose to roll the dice in war. They thought they were stronger and more numerous, better placed, having better chances. And they lost, they lost, they lost, they lost.

They first decided they would settle the issue by the barrel of the gun - and now that the guns have spoken, now that their repeated attempts for a solution based on force and violence have failed, they have changed their minds and they whine with the UNO, the International Court of Justice, the international community, etc., that they want a solution based on justice and fairness.

A bit late.
I wonder how realistic an independent Israel seemed to the Jewish insurgents and guerrillas during their struggle? The Palestinian's Jewish counterparts made widespread use of the gun (and terrorism) during the Mandate, ensuing Civil War and partition as well as afterwards. But of course that is entirely different and once again does not tarnish their 'mature' and realistic aspirations or policies. Neither does an expansionist policy backed by religious fanatics and enforced by military power.

Interesting that depending upon the topic, subject or perhaps parties involved you will go down to the detail of an international treaty to ascertain a situation's legal status or agreements. Here it is pretty much a case of one Palestinian is the same as all the others and that even where they have been competing parties and not involved they should all be held accountable for anything else the other is meant to have done.
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  #68  
Old 09 Sep 14, 09:30
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
But of course that is entirely different
Indeed. I'm glad you see that. But let us be explicit about that difference.

The Israelis had no choice in 1948: fight or be thrown into the sea - the Arabs were loudly proclaiming that that was what they were going to do. If they had been the winners, they would have left the Israelis nothing. The alternative was the same throughout the wars. Up to date, Hamas' final objective is to take all of the disputed territory, not one acre can be given away because all of it is Allah's waqf to the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians, on the contrary, always had and have a choice: take what the winners were and are willing to give them - and the Israelis were and are not interested in taking all the spoils - or try again. They always opted for trying again.

Consider: if they had made peace in say 1960, today East Jerusalem - including the Old City with all the holy places of the three religions involved - would be Palestine's capital. But no. They had to have it all.

So the Israelis keep reducing the amount that they are willing to offer. That's what happens in real life: every time you play for money, and lose, you have less money and your chances of winning also decrease. Pretty evident, still the Palestinians don't want to face the facts of life.

Quote:
Interesting that depending upon the topic, subject or perhaps parties involved you will go down to the detail of an international treaty to ascertain a situation's legal status or agreements. Here
Here, I don't see what is the treaty or convention that is applicable, since this is a matter of strategic political choices. But if you have a convention in mind that you want to mention, go ahead.

Quote:
it is pretty much a case of one Palestinian is the same as all the others and that even where they have been competing parties and not involved they should all be held accountable for anything else the other is meant to have done.
Look at Egypt and Jordan. They have given up all claims to the territory in dispute and made peace with Israel, a peace that is still in effect. Egypt doesn't condemn Hamas solely in carefully crafted statements - they strive to close the tunnels and make sure the terrorists don't base terror operations in Egypt. Israel isn't taking land away from Egypt, of course.
Fatah, on the contrary, disapproves Hamas terror in words, accompanied by much hand-wringing, then they still try to make deals with Hamas and still claim sovereignty over the territory in dispute, including Gaza which is the place the rockets are fired. The kidnappings that gave way to the latest round took place at the hands of Hamas, surely, but they happened in the West Bank.
It's more of the same, another case of wanting to both have their pie and eat it. The Israelis won't fall for that.
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  #69  
Old 09 Sep 14, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Yes, that's it.

Another aspect in the overall political stance of the Palestinians that seems childish to me - if anybody doesn't like the word, you can replace it with "hopelessly unrealistic" - is the following.

I used to play wargames, also with a terribly complicated rule set which made controversies pretty probable. I remember a player who would calculate his odds, then roll the dice... and if the outcome was unfavorable to him, he would suddenly remember an obscure rule that, if applicable, would overturn the whole situation.
After he had chosen to take his chances and roll the dice.

That's the Palestinian attitude. They, and the Arab states that were their patrons before them, repeatedly chose to roll the dice in war. They thought they were stronger and more numerous, better placed, having better chances. And they lost, they lost, they lost, they lost.

They first decided they would settle the issue by the barrel of the gun - and now that the guns have spoken, now that their repeated attempts for a solution based on force and violence have failed, they have changed their minds and they whine with the UNO, the International Court of Justice, the international community, etc., that they want a solution based on justice and fairness.

A bit late.
At least though, you ought to be critical of the settlements. Why defend the settlements, bc that is what you have been seemingly doing in these past few pages. Note how some folks are highly critical of how Qatar treats its foreign workers, note how this includes myself.

You ought to be able to call out Israel for its poor policies including the settlements, that doesnt mean you cant be Pro Israel at the same time, you can still be Pro Israel while being critical of certain policies of Israels gov.

I mean please answer me, are you that brainwashed that you are actually here defending the settlements, that your saying well if the Palestinians put down the gun(which btw its Hamas who is firing rockets, not West Bankers) then the Israels will stop stealing land. Thats just an awful approach. Heck, I might as well stop being critical of how Qatar treats its foreign workers.
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  #70  
Old 09 Sep 14, 12:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Fatah, on the contrary, disapproves Hamas terror in words, accompanied by much hand-wringing, then they still try to make deals with Hamas and still claim sovereignty over the territory in dispute, including Gaza which is the place the rockets are fired. The kidnappings that gave way to the latest round took place at the hands of Hamas, surely, but they happened in the West Bank.
It's more of the same, another case of wanting to both have their pie and eat it. The Israelis won't fall for that.
The kidnappings, what are you doing concentrating about one case? How about all the horrible violence that Palestinians have faced, you bring up the kidnapping, unreal, just unreal. The Palestinians did not start the recent wave of violence, rather, both sides can be blamed, please feel free to look at the fact that weeks prior to the kidnapping of Israelis, that Palestinian protesters were allegedly shot and killed by the IDF, and of course, there were other instances before that, not to mention the fact that Palestinians re occupied, but I guess for some Pro Israel folks, that the fact that Palestinians are living in a open air prison is somehow all the fault of the Palestinians. If you cant find a way to at least give some blame to Israel irt the Israel Palestine conflict, then why even comment on the matter? At least Michele, please be critical of the religious fanatics in Israel, who teach their children to hate.



You ignore the recent civil war between fatah and Hamas. You assume that Fatah is doing this and that with Hamas even though, just a few days back, we had Abbas being highly critical of Hamas. For you to then turn around and suggest that this is simply hand wringing by Fatah, is ignorant, again, consider the violence between Fatah and Hamas.
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  #71  
Old 09 Sep 14, 12:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
At least though, you ought to be critical of the settlements.
In fact I am. I consider those a generally unwise policy.
Then again, consider the alternative. Should the Israelis have frozen in time the territory they conquered after having been repeatedly attacked by an enemy bent on wiping them out from the Middle East? Why? Just because the enemy doesn't want to acknowledge defeat? If that were the only necessary outcome, then no defeated country would ever sign a peace treaty.

Quote:
Note how some folks are highly critical of how Qatar treats its foreign workers, note how this includes myself.
Don't mix the threads.

Quote:
are you that brainwashed
Don't be insulting. Insulting other posters is grounds for a complaint to the moderators.

Quote:
that your saying well if the Palestinians put down the gun(which btw its Hamas who is firing rockets, not West Bankers) then the Israels will stop stealing land. Thats just an awful approach.
That's the correct approach, actually, and it's not me saying it: it is both sides to the conflict, in their more reasonable moments and leaders.
If they agreed that land for peace is a reasonable deal, then it goes without saying that no peace means no land.

You know, Germany started a war in 1914, lost it, and with that it lost a sizable chunk of its empire. Then it started another one in 1939, lost it, and lost another chunk of territory. What do you think would have happened to, say, the Saarland if in 1960 Germany had attacked France for the third time?
This is what the Israelis have had to face, and, guess what, just like the French and the Poles, they want something to show for their hard-earned victories against their aggressors. I fail to see why it should be different for them.

And please, could you and Sergio stop with the unproductive, tired replay of the good-cop-bad-cop game. We all remember how Arafat used to play it decades ago already, and we all know that the Israelis aren't going to fall for it, so could you give it a rest.
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  #72  
Old 09 Sep 14, 12:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
The kidnappings, what are you doing concentrating about one case?
I'm concentrating on that case for the simple reason that it exemplifies what I was stating, though you seem to have missed the point. I.e., that while Hamas is the bad cop in the play, it's not as if it only operates from Gaza; the most egregious terrorist attack in the last few years came from the West Bank. You go back a few more years, and the most egregious terrorist attacks were suicide bombings - try to look up how many started from Gaza and how many from the West Bank.

That's why I'm ignoring other violent events, because they are irrelevant to the point. You should try this some times, i.e., sticking to what is relevant instead of agitating your over-excited indignation about irrelevant details.

Quote:
If you cant find a way to at least give some blame to Israel irt the Israel Palestine conflict, then why even comment on the matter?
I know this might come as a surprise to you, but this is a free forum. A poster might be commenting in here and be 100% supportive of the most extremist far-right Israeli party.

Quote:
You ignore the recent civil war between fatah and Hamas. You assume that Fatah is doing this and that with Hamas even though, just a few days back, we had Abbas being highly critical of Hamas. For you to then turn around and suggest that this is simply hand wringing by Fatah, is ignorant, again, consider the violence between Fatah and Hamas.
Of course I don't ignore it. There is a reason if the attempts to put the two souls of Palestine once again happily together are sometimes dubbed "reconciliation", something that I did mention, if you recall.

That said, the Palestinian civil war was not about one side wanting to finally making peace with Israel and the other not wanting that. It was just a typically Arab internecine civil war about tribal power. When it comes to Hamas terror acts, Fatah might carefully disapprove them in English-language statements. What they say to their pupils in Arab is another matter, and in any case they seldom if ever do something practical about it.

And now, please, as to the matter of Hamas vs. Fatah, read the last paragraph in my previous message. Even if you convinced me, the point is that the Israelis aren't buying this little charade, so it would make sense that we don't waste time with it.
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Old 09 Sep 14, 12:45
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Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
At least though, you ought to be critical of the settlements. Why defend the settlements, bc that is what you have been seemingly doing in these past few pages. Note how some folks are highly critical of how Qatar treats its foreign workers, note how this includes myself.

You ought to be able to call out Israel for its poor policies including the settlements, that doesnt mean you cant be Pro Israel at the same time, you can still be Pro Israel while being critical of certain policies of Israels gov.

I mean please answer me, are you that brainwashed that you are actually here defending the settlements, that your saying well if the Palestinians put down the gun(which btw its Hamas who is firing rockets, not West Bankers) then the Israels will stop stealing land. Thats just an awful approach. Heck, I might as well stop being critical of how Qatar treats its foreign workers.

This thread is not about Qatar - there were still questions people were asking you there. Discuss it there and do not derail this one into something else, and since you have not strongly criticised Qatar for its treatment of foreign workers please do not claim otherwise here.
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Old 09 Sep 14, 12:51
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
In fact I am. I consider those a generally unwise policy.
Then again, consider the alternative. Should the Israelis have frozen in time the territory they conquered after having been repeatedly attacked by an enemy bent on wiping them out from the Middle East? Why? Just because the enemy doesn't want to acknowledge defeat? If that were the only necessary outcome, then no defeated country would ever sign a peace treaty.



Don't mix the threads.



Don't be insulting. Insulting other posters is grounds for a complaint to the moderators.



That's the correct approach, actually, and it's not me saying it: it is both sides to the conflict, in their more reasonable moments and leaders.
If they agreed that land for peace is a reasonable deal, then it goes without saying that no peace means no land.

You know, Germany started a war in 1914, lost it, and with that it lost a sizable chunk of its empire. Then it started another one in 1939, lost it, and lost another chunk of territory. What do you think would have happened to, say, the Saarland if in 1960 Germany had attacked France for the third time?
This is what the Israelis have had to face, and, guess what, just like the French and the Poles, they want something to show for their hard-earned victories against their aggressors. I fail to see why it should be different for them.

And please, could you and Sergio stop with the unproductive, tired replay of the good-cop-bad-cop game. We all remember how Arafat used to play it decades ago already, and we all know that the Israelis aren't going to fall for it, so could you give it a rest.
Whereas your usual position of Israel right, Palestinians wrong response to everything is somehow anything other than tired and unproductive? There are flaws and responsibility for the situation on all sides going back to the violence of the Mandate days.
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Old 09 Sep 14, 13:03
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marktwain has a spectacular aura about [400]
marktwain has a spectacular aura about [400]
Thoughtfull point, Sergio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Whereas your usual position of Israel right, Palestinians wrong response to everything is somehow anything other than tired and unproductive? There are flaws and responsibility for the situation on all sides going back to the violence of the Mandate days.
Bernard Montgomery, at the 1936 Peel commission, observed that all successful states are 'squared territories, where defense in depth dissuades an attack. Hence the Peel commission call for a Jewish Galilee and coastal state.

the Middle eat would be somewhat different if they had gone ahead:

Gaza, a quiet seaside fertile breadbasket, far removed from the troubles to the North..
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