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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #46  
Old 07 Sep 14, 17:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Which parts? All of those are historic facts...
No, they are your loaded interpretation of historical facts.

1- in order to be a "Colonial State" it would have to be part of a greater Empire, by definition. There is none.
Unless you are trying to say its a puppet state of that EVIL empire, the USA.


2- what Palestinian people have been deported in the last ten years from inside the borders of Isreal?
If its "continuing" as you say, there must have been some.
and no, terrorists don't count.

3- Ethnic cleansing? What about the 1.5 million Arabs living in Isreal?

First you say you don't support Hamas but you take all of their talking points verbatim.
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  #47  
Old 08 Sep 14, 03:30
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Hamas are a bunch of thugs who murder dissenters, collaborators, have an anti-Semitic charter, are spew vile and racist propaganda, have denied the people of Gaza a vote, jail gays, denies freedom of speech and the world will be a better place when they no longer have any power. I think that you have missed the fact that I have no liking for Hamas.

However, the idea that the situation is solely to down to Hamas is laughable.
I hate to invoke Godwin.....but

Replace Hamas with Nazi and a few minor words and it is the same.

To defeat Nazism did the world have to bring Germany and the German people to her knees? War and history repeats itself. Accept a regime that cares more for their ideology than the lives of the people lies squarely on the shoulders of the meek.
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  #48  
Old 08 Sep 14, 05:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Btw kids hamas is refusing to have international peacekeepers in gaza.

Says it'd be a occupation...


“Hamas will deal with any international troops as a new occupation force,” Hamas representative Ismail Radwan said. “The international parties should work toward lifting the siege and occupation instead of talking about the weapons of the resistance.”

Radwan said that the weapons of the “resistance are sacred and are there to defend the Palestinians.”

He claimed that Israel was trying to use an international force to obtain what it failed to achieve during Operation Protective Edge. “The Palestinians are opposed to international intervention,” he added.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...upation-374655

Sure sounds like they want peace...
Isn't there a poster here who routinely trots out a pet proposal of a US peacekeeping force in Gaza? I seem to remember I hypothesized they would be shot at just as yet another occupier, but I don't remember that he took stock of that guess. Well, it was just a guess by me then, now it's getting confirmed by Hamas itself.
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  #49  
Old 08 Sep 14, 05:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
How long have the villages that just lost their farming land been there?
A long time, one guesses, even though of course the land was miserably underdeveloped then, and not comparable with how it is now.
Then again, Germans were in East Prussia for a long time, and they aren't there any more. Yet you won't hear the grand-grandsons of those evictees still complaining about that today.

Quote:
Should this go ahead people have then lost the right to use their land, land which has already been reduced by earlier acts.

What does it do for any potential peace deal to have your land and homes seized by other people. How would you or your neighbours feel to be told that? It is the arrogance of colonial power.
It doesn't do much for peace. Then again when land was handed back, it also did not do much for peace, remember?

So the Palestinians lost some of their lands. These things happen when you start a war and lose it. And then you start another war and lose it. And then you start another war and lose it. And then you start another war and lose it.
Better get used to this. The Germans did. Germany and Poland have pretty good relations now - one of the key reasons is that Germans aren't claiming East Prussia back, nor are they claiming all of Poland as their God-given right, nor are they firing rockets at Poland.
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  #50  
Old 08 Sep 14, 10:02
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
A long time, one guesses, even though of course the land was miserably underdeveloped then, and not comparable with how it is now.
Then again, Germans were in East Prussia for a long time, and they aren't there any more. Yet you won't hear the grand-grandsons of those evictees still complaining about that today.



It doesn't do much for peace. Then again when land was handed back, it also did not do much for peace, remember?

So the Palestinians lost some of their lands. These things happen when you start a war and lose it. And then you start another war and lose it. And then you start another war and lose it. And then you start another war and lose it.
Better get used to this. The Germans did. Germany and Poland have pretty good relations now - one of the key reasons is that Germans aren't claiming East Prussia back, nor are they claiming all of Poland as their God-given right, nor are they firing rockets at Poland.
Following your argument if you see Hamas as starting something, the PA denounced them and Israel took land from the West Bank. Is it a case of one bunch of Palestinians is pretty much the same as another?

As for repeatedly starting wars - not every round of violence is down to one side. Removing settlers from Gaza was not the end of the story was it? Similarly the settlements have been an ongoing policy regardless of violence from the Palestinians.
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  #51  
Old 08 Sep 14, 10:05
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
I hate to invoke Godwin.....but

Replace Hamas with Nazi and a few minor words and it is the same.

To defeat Nazism did the world have to bring Germany and the German people to her knees? War and history repeats itself. Accept a regime that cares more for their ideology than the lives of the people lies squarely on the shoulders of the meek.
This being the same Hamas who entered a unity government, recognised Israel's right to exist, said that an Israel-Palestine based on 1967 borders would be put a referendum?
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  #52  
Old 08 Sep 14, 10:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Following your argument Hamas starts something, the PA denounces them and Israel takes land from the West Bank. Is it a case of one bunch of Palestinians is pretty much the same as another?
Pretty much, yes. If a bunch of Frenchmen landed at Brighton and kidnapped a number of people, and another bunch of Frenchmen fired long-range missiles at Dover, your government would tend to consider those things as France's doings, yes.


Quote:
As for repeatedly starting wars - not every round of violence is down to one side.
It is a good approximation that the Arabs started violence pretty much every time. In any case, the German confederation began violence against Denmark, and Schleswig-Holstein still is German today. Germany and Denmark have good relations, and it also happens that the Danes have given up any claim to Schleswig-Holstein.
A child, of course, might cry: "it's not fair!". Indeed, yet it happens. Sooner or later one has to come to terms with reality. Spoilt children do that later than others, I suppose.

Quote:
Removing settlers from Gaza was not the end of the story was it?
Of course not. If the other side had shown as much good will, maybe the story would have continued in the desired direction. Since, on the contrary, the other side took the land and did not deliver the peace...
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  #53  
Old 08 Sep 14, 10:30
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
This being the same Hamas who entered a unity government, recognised Israel's right to exist,
Wow, they amended the Charter and I missed it? Great news.

Quote:
said that an Israel-Palestine based on 1967 borders would be put a referendum?
Well, that's a very meaningful promise. A bit like a French government in 1873 saying that the loss of Alsace and Lorraine would be accepted if a majority of the French voted for it in a referendum.
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  #54  
Old 08 Sep 14, 11:07
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This thread has eerie similarities with the Ukrainian threads. Sergio, do you side with the Seps? Because the Russian members are using the same 'logic'. (Or so it seems.)
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Old 08 Sep 14, 11:19
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http://www.levyinstitute.org/palestinian-census/

In 1967 the Government of Israel did an in depth study of the resources of the GaZa Strip, including it's then thriving clothing export sector.

somebody leaked it...

VOLUME *4*TABLE*MEMPLOYED*MEN,*BY*ECONOMIC*BRANCH*‐*IN*IS RAEL,*JUDAEA*AND*SAMARIA,*THE*GAZA*


Professional; employment in1967 of non Jews in Gaza was at 250% of the professional employment of non Jews in Israel.
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  #56  
Old 08 Sep 14, 13:14
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Pretty much, yes. If a bunch of Frenchmen landed at Brighton and kidnapped a number of people, and another bunch of Frenchmen fired long-range missiles at Dover, your government would tend to consider those things as France's doings, yes.




It is a good approximation that the Arabs started violence pretty much every time. In any case, the German confederation began violence against Denmark, and Schleswig-Holstein still is German today. Germany and Denmark have good relations, and it also happens that the Danes have given up any claim to Schleswig-Holstein.
A child, of course, might cry: "it's not fair!". Indeed, yet it happens. Sooner or later one has to come to terms with reality. Spoilt children do that later than others, I suppose.



Of course not. If the other side had shown as much good will, maybe the story would have continued in the desired direction. Since, on the contrary, the other side took the land and did not deliver the peace...
So you are saying that Palestine is a nation state with a single government and recognised borders?

Childish - interesting fighting for a homeland and expanding settlements where decided is seen the mature, rational and grown-up response if it is the Israelis. Palestinians continue fighting for a homeland and it is childish and spoilt. Good to see your reasoned approach. Palestinians, Arabs guilty as a default position as per your earlier post. And by saying fighting - I am not justifying acts of terrorism.
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  #57  
Old 08 Sep 14, 13:15
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Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
This thread has eerie similarities with the Ukrainian threads. Sergio, do you side with the Seps? Because the Russian members are using the same 'logic'. (Or so it seems.)
Which logic are the Russian forum members using which is applicable here? I have not been following their discussions, yet another highly nationalistic set of threads did not appeal.
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  #58  
Old 08 Sep 14, 14:10
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So you are saying that Palestine is a nation state with a single government and recognised borders?
No. I'm claiming that that is what the PA would like to have. So they have to be up to it.

Yes, I know, they have no control over Gaza. So? They are still trying to form "reconciliation" and "national unity" government with Hamas, i.e. the party firing those rockets and killing Israelis.

Quote:
Childish - interesting fighting for a homeland and expanding settlements where decided is seen the mature, rational and grown-up response if it is the Israelis. Palestinians continue fighting for a homeland and it is childish and spoilt. Good to see your reasoned approach. Palestinians, Arabs guilty as a default position as per your earlier post. And by saying fighting - I am not justifying acts of terrorism.
The Germans grew up in 1945 and accepted reality. The Palestinians largely don't; it's been a while since I saw a poll taken among them, but FWIW the majority still wanted unrealistic goals and insisted on them. That's childish, yes.
Deciding something should be attempted is childish, or not, not just on the merits of what is attempted, but also on the basis of the realistic chances of success. If a 10-year-old decided to try and stop his violent 200-lb dad from beating his mother, I would not have anything to object on the merits of the attempt - it's good and brave of the child to want to do that. Yet it's childish, on the basis of his chances of accomplishing the desired outcome.

Of course it's largely not the fault of the Palestinian man in the street if he wants the moon - he's grown up in a propaganda bubble. That's why I'd add "spoilt"; a child who is spoilt is the fault of who spoiled him. On this regard, also note how the international community has one UN agency to deal with the real refugees all over the world, but it has one other agency to deal with the Palestinian "refugees" - people who by now have been born in the countries in which they live, and very possibly their parents and grandparents have been born there too.
The UNHCR, to deal with all the real refugees in the world, employs under 10,000 personnel.
The UNRWA, to deal with the Palestinian "refugees" employs some 30,000 personnel - most of them, of course, Palestinians.
The last budget I have available for the UNRWA is the 2010, at that time 23% of the budget went to "support service and staff".
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Old 08 Sep 14, 23:57
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polite as I like to be...

Both Israel and Hamas deny allegations that they violated international humanitarian law during the conflict.

Mr Hamad cites the case of al-Badr flour mill, Gaza's largest, the only one that was operating at the time and the only place in the Strip that can store large volumes of grain.


Mahmoud Hamada, manager of al-Badr flour mill, amid destroyed machinery
Mr Hamada says new machinery would cost $1.5m


Pigeons now fly in and out of a mess of charred machinery, open to the sky where a huge section is missing from the top two floors.

Manager Mahmoud Hamada says it was hit from both sides by F16s and helicopters on 16 January, following telephone warnings that the building would be targeted, but he insists there were no Hamas fighters in the area.

At the time of publication, the Israel military had not responded to questions about why either the flour mill or the al-Wadiya factories were attacked.

There were no casualties from the strikes, but his 35-year-old nephew, a doctor and father of five, plunged four floors to his death while trying to clear debris after the attack.

Mr Hamada says he needs 60 tonnes of iron, 200 of cement and some $1.5m worth of machinery to rebuild. But none of it is available.

He says, politically, he is neutral and simply cares about "how to bring bread for the people of Gaza".


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8119457.stm


ed to be pro Israeli, but the hasbara these days makes want to throw up. Rockets launched from - a FLOUR MILL? give me a break. I miss the old days when the Stern Gangs just blew up hotels with Brits in them.

So now there is no- bread flour in Gaza. Smooth move.:
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Old 09 Sep 14, 00:40
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
For me it also comes down to this - if one of the main implied aspects of the Oslo Accords was land for peace, how does that sit with expanding the settlements?

But Israel never got the peace, why should they get the land?


Give me some time to go over your detailed reply. You provided some informative links I want to read before I reply back.
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