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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #31  
Old 06 Sep 14, 10:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
When I read your post, I was disappointed in Israel.
BUT, I did some research into it and found out that the land they are planning to build on are within the Etzion Bloc. Under the Oslo Accords, the Etzion Bloc is defined as Area C, for which Israel has full control of zoning and planning. They are doing nothing wrong.
Except that Oslo was meant to be a temporary step on the path towards final status agreements - a process over five years by which both sides could make the required steps towards final status negotiations whilst developing trust and establishing a working relationship.

There was a lot of criticism, both at the time and since, about the lack of an agreement in a complete freeze in settlement building within the Oslo Accords. Israel would not agree to that language and it was delayed for the later negotiations. However, what was agreed to was that the territory would not be changed. There was also a lot of criticism about what the agreement meant for Jerusalem and the surrounding areas in any final peace plan. Oslo was deeply unpopular amongst many on both sides and some have argued was probably doomed to fail.

However, if you are going to cite Oslo as a justification for seizing more land and expanding settlements in Area C then you open yourself up to the question of firstly how al temporary 5 year phase allows for that and secondly why all of the other agreements have not been met.
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  #32  
Old 06 Sep 14, 18:51
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Except that Oslo was meant to be a temporary step on the path towards final status agreements - a process over five years by which both sides could make the required steps towards final status negotiations whilst developing trust and establishing a working relationship.

There was a lot of criticism, both at the time and since, about the lack of an agreement in a complete freeze in settlement building within the Oslo Accords. Israel would not agree to that language and it was delayed for the later negotiations. However, what was agreed to was that the territory would not be changed. There was also a lot of criticism about what the agreement meant for Jerusalem and the surrounding areas in any final peace plan. Oslo was deeply unpopular amongst many on both sides and some have argued was probably doomed to fail.

However, if you are going to cite Oslo as a justification for seizing more land and expanding settlements in Area C then you open yourself up to the question of firstly how al temporary 5 year phase allows for that and secondly why all of the other agreements have not been met.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Oslo Accords being a 'temporary' step. The Oslo Accords had several steps involved for both parties to achieve in order to succeed.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/process/docs/heskemb_eng.htm



I will cite Oslo to show that Israel is not seizing land. They are expanding on land that they have control of...according to Oslo. At least this is how I interpret it.

If you have credible info to prove otherwise, I would love to read it.
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  #33  
Old 06 Sep 14, 23:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
If you have credible info to prove otherwise, I would love to read it.
Don't hold your breath.

Palestinian violations of Oslo include-

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpol...2025-oct-.aspx

Guess the source is going to have to be crucified next.
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  #34  
Old 07 Sep 14, 08:51
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Don't hold your breath.

Palestinian violations of Oslo include-

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpol...2025-oct-.aspx

Guess the source is going to have to be crucified next.
Don't hold your breath - a tad hypocritical since you told fibs about the response your posts got on another thread and then refused to respond to the questions put to you about it. By the way any chance you could return to that thread and actually respond to the questions about your misuse of a murder case and use of a white nationalist, racist video that was also inaccurate about the events they claimed to cover?

In case you forgot where the thread is it is here

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=151414

Also since you commented here any response to the point that Oslo was not a final agreement?
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  #35  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:22
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Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by the Oslo Accords being a 'temporary' step. The Oslo Accords had several steps involved for both parties to achieve in order to succeed.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/process/docs/heskemb_eng.htm



I will cite Oslo to show that Israel is not seizing land. They are expanding on land that they have control of...according to Oslo. At least this is how I interpret it.

If you have credible info to prove otherwise, I would love to read it.
my reply was lost so have to redo it. Perhaps temporary was the wrong word. What I meant was that Oslo was in of itself not a final decision on of all of the issues. What Oslo did was formalise recognition as well as establish a framework for a period in which both sides could deal with some things and establish a working relationship. It was meant to lead onto final status agreements on a number of things too contentious to agree upon at the time (settlements being one of them). There are plenty of references throughout the text to the fact that Oslo was intended to be part of a process, not an end itself and also left things to be discussed.

http://archive.adl.org/israel/final_...lements_1.html

It is mentioned in the title (interim agreement), more than once in the preamble (paragraphs 5, 6). There are other references to the transitional nature of the process and to the fact that parts of Area C were to be transferred to Palestinian control, aside from areas yet to be decided in final negotiations. Article XXVI 1 & 2.

Article XXXI states that there are issues yet to discuss and that are not finalised as well as that claims for either party are not invalidated by Oslo (5 & 6). Parts 7 & 8 mention not changing the status of the land and also it being one territorial unit which will be preserved for the interim period. I have not quoted everything otherwise this will be even more ridiculously lengthy post.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/process/docs/heskemb_eng.htm

From your answer to Bow I think that you are going to say that the land seized and declared state land falls under Area C which Israel has zoning and planning control of - correct? That control does not, however, extend to expanding settlements as much as Israel wants. Area C is still up for final status negotiations after the interim period. Two articles I found which discussed the agreements

http://muftah.org/original-sin-how-t.../#.VAxkx5pwbIU

This discusses how Oslo failed to get an agreement on a freeze in settlement building, but also what if it meant a defacto recognition of Israeli claims on Jerusalem and the settlements around it. They argue it did and that by doing so Israel can (and has) claimed those areas are not settlements. By the way this is from an avowedly pro-Palestinian site. I have not read everything else on it and it covers a wide range of issues from around the world. I am not making any claim on anything else that they have written. However, this article as far as I can see discusses Oslo and highlights things that could be seen as being in Israel's favour. So it seemed balanced in that regard. E Benvenisti thought that the municipal boundaries was vaguely defined - and as Oslo said nothing in the document invalidated either sides claims.

http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/4/1/1217.pdf.

Area C and settlements are part of the most argued over aspects of the issue. There is, as far as I can see, no agreement that any amount of land can be taken and declared state land. Many have also claimed that Israel's settlement policy over the years has been discriminatory, aimed at pushing Palestinians out of the area as well as supporting illegal settlements within the area. It raises the question if the final status agreements were never held what is legal?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-is-over.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...nial-palestine

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...546220691.html

http://peacenow.org.il/eng/OsloSummary

http://www.btselem.org/publications/201306_area_c

For me it also comes down to this - if one of the main implied aspects of the Oslo Accords was land for peace, how does that sit with expanding the settlements?
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  #36  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:26
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Btw kids hamas is refusing to have international peacekeepers in gaza.

Says it'd be a occupation...


“Hamas will deal with any international troops as a new occupation force,” Hamas representative Ismail Radwan said. “The international parties should work toward lifting the siege and occupation instead of talking about the weapons of the resistance.”

Radwan said that the weapons of the “resistance are sacred and are there to defend the Palestinians.”

He claimed that Israel was trying to use an international force to obtain what it failed to achieve during Operation Protective Edge. “The Palestinians are opposed to international intervention,” he added.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...upation-374655

Sure sounds like they want peace...
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  #37  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:45
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Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Btw kids hamas is refusing to have international peacekeepers in gaza.

Says it'd be a occupation...


“Hamas will deal with any international troops as a new occupation force,” Hamas representative Ismail Radwan said. “The international parties should work toward lifting the siege and occupation instead of talking about the weapons of the resistance.”

Radwan said that the weapons of the “resistance are sacred and are there to defend the Palestinians.”

He claimed that Israel was trying to use an international force to obtain what it failed to achieve during Operation Protective Edge. “The Palestinians are opposed to international intervention,” he added.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...upation-374655

Sure sounds like they want peace...
The extremists on all sides do not want peace.
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  #38  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:53
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
The extremists on all sides do not want peace.
Sure, the problem is that Hamas is the elected government of gaza and still wants war.

Idk why that's so hard to grasp...
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  #39  
Old 07 Sep 14, 11:59
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Sure, the problem is that Hamas is the elected government of gaza and still wants war.

Idk why that's so hard to grasp...
Whereas Netanyahu is the epitome of concession, respect for the rights of others and peace?
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  #40  
Old 07 Sep 14, 12:04
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Whereas Netanyahu is the epitome of concession, respect for the rights of others and peace?
Reverse the current situation if the palis had nukes and the jews were living gaza how long would the jews be alive?

Your trying to make both sides equal and they aren't. Hamas slaughters its own and anyone else they can get their hands on. And you just refuse to see it...
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Old 07 Sep 14, 12:13
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Reverse the current situation if the palis had nukes and the jews were living gaza how long would the jews be alive?

Your trying to make both sides equal and they aren't. Hamas slaughters its own and anyone else they can get their hands on. And you just refuse to see it...
Hamas are a bunch of thugs who murder dissenters, collaborators, have an anti-Semitic charter, are spew vile and racist propaganda, have denied the people of Gaza a vote, jail gays, denies freedom of speech and the world will be a better place when they no longer have any power. I think that you have missed the fact that I have no liking for Hamas.

However, the idea that the situation is solely to down to Hamas is laughable.
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Old 07 Sep 14, 12:28
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Hamas are a bunch of thugs who murder dissenters, collaborators, have an anti-Semitic charter, are spew vile and racist propaganda, have denied the people of Gaza a vote, jail gays, denies freedom of speech and the world will be a better place when they no longer have any power. I think that you have missed the fact that I have no liking for Hamas.

However, the idea that the situation is solely to down to Hamas is laughable.
Okay. I agree with this.
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  #43  
Old 07 Sep 14, 13:01
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Okay. I agree with this.
The flipside is that Israel is a colonial state based on the ethnic cleansing of other people which continues to dispossess Palestinian people, is expanding settlements, practises a discriminatory legal system, arbitrarily arrests people, tortures people, breaks agreements, has supported illegal settlements, supported terrorists and guerrillas in the past and has not been held accountable in the same way for any number of historic massacres. Its religious fanatics and their actions seem to get a pass around here.
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Old 07 Sep 14, 13:09
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
The flipside is that Israel is a colonial state based on the ethnic cleansing of other people which continues to dispossess Palestinian people, is expanding settlements, practises a discriminatory legal system, arbitrarily arrests people, tortures people, breaks agreements, has supported illegal settlements, supported terrorists and guerrillas in the past and has not been held accountable in the same way for any number of historic massacres. Its religious fanatics and their actions seem to get a pass around here.
That I don't agree with.
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Old 07 Sep 14, 13:32
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That I don't agree with.
Which parts? All of those are historic facts. There are aspects of Israeli society which are far better than neighbouring countries - freedom of religion, speech, expression, gender rights, gay rights, an active and free press, democratic and regular electoral system, etc.
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