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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #16  
Old 01 Aug 14, 18:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phebe View Post
That's why we Americans look foolish. Because Kerry worked hard to get a truce that Hamas simply used to get a hostage.

Also more reason to stay out of it. This is a regional conflict. Until Egypt, Saud, or larger entities get involved, or until Israel's survival is in question, the US should butt entirely out of this one and let the Israelis handle the regional issue. That's why you develop allies in regions with importance to your national interests....so you can stay out of the regional stuff and not go into everything.


He must have thought it would hold: he meant to build on it for a longer ceasefire, the news said.

I'm getting a little tired of Kerry. He has the same problem George Bush and Barack Obama have: no success ever, ever, ever, ever.

Well, in one instance someone in the Bush Admin tried the right tactic. You don't send a lifetime politician to negotiate with this sort of people. You send a hard-nosed hole. In Iraq the Generals were getting deals made, the politicians screwing them up. The Arab culture simply does not respect politicians as much as warriors. Which is why heads of state often style themselves prominently as CnC, where in other parts of the world they don't feel a need to regularly wear a military uniform.

The whole world is churning with the Winds of War, the Wall Street Journal mentioned that term twice in one issue, and Kerry flies continually all over the world including India (INDIA??? Why India? to look busy, I guess) and fails at pretty much everything he tries on.

I realize he wants to run for prez or vice-prez, but I can't say his record is any better than the Bush and Obama records of failure.


Go home, Kerry. Rest. Go to Maine. Take a vacation.
I agree. Kerry, you blew it, go home.
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  #17  
Old 01 Aug 14, 18:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Actually he's a POW.

Technically you're correct. Which means that the Red Cross should be allowed access to him to verify his identity, that he is safe, and that he is receiving a basic level of care.

Israel appears( its not certain) to have hit on the best way to oust Hamas- bring in Earth moving equipment, dig down to the tunnel level, then flood the damaged tunnels with 60 ft of Water.
I expect to see the Five miles between Gaza and the Egyptian border down out, which cripples Hamas.

And restores the Hydrological balance to the Gaza Aquifer.
I don't think they're doing it on purpose....probably more of an 'ironic benefit'. And they could always pump in seawater....the Med is not exactly running dry these days.

Israel has 3 options when it comes to the Lieutenant:

1) Negotiate, whether openly or in secret.

2) Press the attack even harder, to end the war quickly with no further loss of life, hoping that the Lieutenant can be recovered.

3) Ascertain his location and commando him out.

In dealing with Hamas, with their long term track record, as well as their current track record, I'd say that negotiations would be ruinous or futile, or both. Hamas is going to want something ridiculous, and then they might not even release him (alive).

This might be an instance to have a "Remember the Alamo" moment, and go balls to the wall. Hamas has broken every ceasefire ever attempted in this current conflict. After this one was brokered and failed Israel has a window before the next one is attempted. That window should be used to crank it up to 11 and actually show Hamas (and its baby brethren in the West Bank) that Israel can and will crush you.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 19:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I don't think they're doing it on purpose....probably more of an 'ironic benefit'. And they could always pump in seawater....the Med is not exactly running dry these days.

Israel has 3 options when it comes to the Lieutenant:

1) Negotiate, whether openly or in secret.

2) Press the attack even harder, to end the war quickly with no further loss of life, hoping that the Lieutenant can be recovered.

3) Ascertain his location and commando him out.

In dealing with Hamas, with their long term track record, as well as their current track record, I'd say that negotiations would be ruinous or futile, or both. Hamas is going to want something ridiculous, and then they might not even release him (alive).

This might be an instance to have a "Remember the Alamo" moment, and go balls to the wall. Hamas has broken every ceasefire ever attempted in this current conflict. After this one was brokered and failed Israel has a window before the next one is attempted. That window should be used to crank it up to 11 and actually show Hamas (and its baby brethren in the West Bank) that Israel can and will crush you.
Israel already has a policy with regards to its personnel being captured or kidnapped. The Hannibal Directive

"The Hannibal Directive reflects not only the tactical and strategic implications for an army in the capture of one of its soldiers but the national trauma that is caused as well. The collective outpouring of grief for the fate of one family confronting the unknown which translates into deep political pressure on the government to do anything to ensure his return – including as in the Galid Shalit case, signing an agreement to release 1,027 prisoners in return."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.608387

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanniba...#The_directive
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  #19  
Old 01 Aug 14, 19:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I don't think they're doing it on purpose....probably more of an 'ironic benefit'. And they could always pump in seawater....the Med is not exactly running dry these days.even release him (alive).

) that Israel can and will crush you.
You may want to do some research on the bolded section
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Old 01 Aug 14, 19:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post

This might be an instance to have a "Remember the Alamo" moment, and go balls to the wall. Hamas has broken every ceasefire ever attempted in this current conflict. After this one was brokered and failed Israel has a window before the next one is attempted. That window should be used to crank it up to 11 and actually show Hamas (and its baby brethren in the West Bank) that Israel can and will crush you.
Well said, both posts. And you bring up a new point: the West Bank IS beginning to express itself in solidarity with Gaza. Might be a good time to show it that this is a very, very bad idea.
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  #21  
Old 01 Aug 14, 19:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
No, of course. He's a victim of kidnapping. The poster you are replying to is very badly informed.

If he were a POW, or if Shalit had been a POW, they would have been granted rights by their captors that are specified in detail in Geneva III 1949. Shalit was never granted those rights, and I very much doubt this lieutenant will be.

Among the other rights, the POW is entitled to let his family know his POW camp's address! Of course Hamas is unable to comply with this requirement; if they let the Israeli know where an abductee is caged, they'd lose the abductee soon. Indeed, they have to treat the abductee in the way all terrorist organizations treat their hostages, not in the way a responsible combatant who is a signatory of Conventions defining the POW status will behave.
Nope .He is a POW and entitled to the rights of a POW.

Remember the Bridge on the river Kwai? StillPOW's.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 20:23
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I wonder with some curiosity what the situation would have been in that house where the alleged 'capture' took place if both sides had adhered to the terms of the ceasefire.

The IDF says its special unit was in a house where a tunnel entrance had been located. Under the ceasefire agreement, the IDF were allowed to remain in Gaza although it was unclear as to whether they were allowed to continue destroying the tunnels.

Anyway, while the soldiers were in the house, Palestinian fighters emerged from the tunnel.

What should have happened then according to the ceasefire?

I guess the soldiers were supposed to allow the fighters to pass unhindered, and the Palestinian fighters were supposed to ignore the Israeli soldiers.

Seems a bit odd, but I guess that is what should have happened according to the agreement.


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  #23  
Old 02 Aug 14, 02:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Israel already has a policy with regards to its personnel being captured or kidnapped. The Hannibal Directive

"The Hannibal Directive reflects not only the tactical and strategic implications for an army in the capture of one of its soldiers but the national trauma that is caused as well. The collective outpouring of grief for the fate of one family confronting the unknown which translates into deep political pressure on the government to do anything to ensure his return – including as in the Galid Shalit case, signing an agreement to release 1,027 prisoners in return."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.608387

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanniba...#The_directive
Hannibal SOP only deals with the Standard Operating Procedure during and immediately after the abduction. It has nothing repeat- NOTHING to do with policy.

Anyone saying otherwise has no idea what Hannibal is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Nope .He is a POW and entitled to the rights of a POW.

Remember the Bridge on the river Kwai? StillPOW's.
I hope it's just you trying to be funny...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipLaos View Post
The IDF says its special unit was in a house where a tunnel entrance had been located. Under the ceasefire agreement, the IDF were allowed to remain in Gaza although it was unclear as to whether they were allowed to continue destroying the tunnels.
The cease fire agreement was very clear about allowing the continuation of Israeli operations against the terror tunnels.
Quote:
Anyway, while the soldiers were in the house, Palestinian fighters emerged from the tunnel.

What should have happened then according to the ceasefire?

I guess the soldiers were supposed to allow the fighters to pass unhindered, and the Palestinian fighters were supposed to ignore the Israeli soldiers.

Seems a bit odd, but I guess that is what should have happened according to the agreement.
Any attempt to portray this as a run-in between two groups of enemies during a cease fire has no understanding of the situation on (and under...) the ground and of the incident itself.

At least one (possibly two) of the Hamas insurgents were suicide bombers.

This was a carefully planned and intended attack against the IDF force with the clear intentions of trying to snatch an IDF soldier dead or alive. People don't just walk around in tunnels with suicide vests strap onto themselves.
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  #24  
Old 02 Aug 14, 02:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
I'm shocked that Muslim fanatics would lie and deceive we infidels regarding this ceasefire.

I'm amazed it lasted as long as ninety minutes.
Yeh, you and me both - amazed, shocked and surprised, not!

The primary Qur'anic verse sanctioning deception with respect to kufrs/non-Muslims states: "Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions." (Quran 3:28; see also 2:173; 2:185; 4:29; 22:78; 40:28.)

Regarding 3:28, the Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) wrote: "Whoever at any time or place fears their [infidels'] evil, may protect himself through outward show."

As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad's companions. Abu Darda said: "Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them." Al-Hassan said: "Doing taqiyya{deception] is acceptable till the day of judgment [in perpetuity]."

Other prominent ulema, such as al- Qurtubi , al-Razi, and al-Arabi have extended taqiyya to cover deeds. Muslims can behave like infidels – from bowing down and worshipping idols and crosses to even exposing fellow Muslims' "weak spots" to the infidel enemy – anything short of actually killing a fellow Muslim.


Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage.


As a Muslim taxi/cab driver here in Sheffield, UK, once said to me, "The worst Muslim is better than the best kufr/non-Muslim."

Last edited by Wooden Wonder; 02 Aug 14 at 03:06..
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Old 02 Aug 14, 03:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
Hannibal SOP only deals with the Standard Operating Procedure during and immediately after the abduction. It has nothing repeat- NOTHING to do with policy.
I provided two links outlining exactly what the Hannibal Directive is and how it applies. So I obviously not claiming it to be anything other than it is and it is a policy to do with the immediate aftermath of a capture of kidnapping.

My answer was also in the context of another poster saying that this could be an Alamo moment allowing them to go all out. The point was that the IDF can go all out within this doctrine trying to stop the soldier being taken - and it has already been suggested that that is linked to the dozens of deaths in the immediate aftermath of his being taken. That part could have been stated clearer.
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Old 02 Aug 14, 04:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
I provided two links outlining exactly what the Hannibal Directive is and how it applies. So I obviously not claiming it to be anything other than it is and it is a policy to do with the immediate aftermath of a capture of kidnapping.
I can't read Ha'aretz since I'm not subscribed to it (and wouldn't want to anyway) and the Wikipedia link is horribly BSing.

Nonetheless you said "Israel already has a policy with regards to its personnel being captured or kidnapped." It isn't a policy, it's an SOP. Nothing more- nothing less.
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Old 02 Aug 14, 04:03
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Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
Yeh, you and me both - amazed, shocked and surprised, not!

The primary Qur'anic verse sanctioning deception with respect to kufrs/non-Muslims states: "Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions." (Quran 3:28; see also 2:173; 2:185; 4:29; 22:78; 40:28.)

Regarding 3:28, the Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) wrote: "Whoever at any time or place fears their [infidels'] evil, may protect himself through outward show."

As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad's companions. Abu Darda said: "Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them." Al-Hassan said: "Doing taqiyya{deception] is acceptable till the day of judgment [in perpetuity]."

Other prominent ulema, such as al- Qurtubi , al-Razi, and al-Arabi have extended taqiyya to cover deeds. Muslims can behave like infidels – from bowing down and worshipping idols and crosses to even exposing fellow Muslims' "weak spots" to the infidel enemy – anything short of actually killing a fellow Muslim.


Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage.


As a Muslim taxi/cab driver here in Sheffield, UK, once said to me, "The worst Muslim is better than the best kufr/non-Muslim."
War is deceit - do you disagree with that? Should every intelligence operation be stopped, should any military operation that involves subterfuge be banned. I guess Operation Mincemeat was wrong because it involved deceit? How about Operation Quicksilver? I think that you need to be far more selective in your criticism of deception and deceit in conflict.
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Old 02 Aug 14, 04:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
I can't read Ha'aretz since I'm not subscribed to it (and wouldn't want to anyway) and the Wikipedia link is horribly BSing.

Nonetheless you said "Israel already has a policy with regards to its personnel being captured or kidnapped." It isn't a policy, it's an SOP. Nothing more- nothing less.
Is it a policy relating to what to do in the aftermath of a capture or kidnapping? It would seem it is. If you prefer the word procedure then fine.

Strange about the Haaretz link as I am sure that I read it and I am not subscribed. It must have been a different article and I put the wrong link in,
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Last edited by Sergio; 02 Aug 14 at 04:10..
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Old 02 Aug 14, 04:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Is it a policy relating to what to do in the aftermath of a capture or kidnapping? It would seem it is. If you prefer the word procedure then fine.
Policy is made in the strategic (and grand-strategic) level. SOP is made in the tactical level.
Hannibal is no more policy then taking cover-observing-returning fire-communicating-maneuvering is when coming under fire is policy.

To clarify- Hannibal is the standard operating procedure of how to react to an abduction in terms of communication, maneuver and fire (which I will not detail for obvious reasons) in the immediate level and time frame.

Edit-
As for Ha'aretz, they provide you with a limited free reads of online articles (IIRC 5 per month) over that- you need to subscribe.

Last edited by Golani; 02 Aug 14 at 04:18..
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Old 02 Aug 14, 04:40
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Originally Posted by Golani View Post
Policy is made in the strategic (and grand-strategic) level. SOP is made in the tactical level.
Hannibal is no more policy then taking cover-observing-returning fire-communicating-maneuvering is when coming under fire is policy.

To clarify- Hannibal is the standard operating procedure of how to react to an abduction in terms of communication, maneuver and fire (which I will not detail for obvious reasons) in the immediate level and time frame.

Edit-
As for Ha'aretz, they provide you with a limited free reads of online articles (IIRC 5 per month) over that- you need to subscribe.
Cheers for the Haaretz info. I clearly said what the Hannibal Directive was. However, I was using the word policy in the sense of -

"A course or principle of action adopted or proposed by an organization or individual: the government’s controversial economic policies"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...english/policy

But yes in hindsight the words procedure, guidelines, doctrine or approach, etc would have been better.
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G.B Shaw

"They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
Grandad, Only Fools and Horses
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