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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #1  
Old 01 Aug 14, 13:02
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Hamas Breaks 72-hour Truce Within 90 Minutes

Kerry brokered a 72-hour "humanitarian" truce that was supposed to lead to a longer peace, but within 90 minutes Hamas soldiers attacked Israeli soldiers from tunnels and abducted one soldier., Lt. Hardar Goldin, and killed two others. They also immediately fired some nine missiles into Israel, one of which was brought down by the Iron Dome.

American reaction has been upset and angry: "U.S. calls Hamas attack 'barbaric' violation of Gaza ceasefire: CNN" is the Reuters headline now. We do look rather foolish, I think! Hamas has been using us and playing us, clearly. I'm beginning to wonder about Kerry: busy squirrel, full of work. He runs around here, there, everywhere: but accomplishes nothing.

Does Hamas think they can stop the bombardment and tunnel destruction via this hostage soldier? Haaretz News thinks the abduction may well shape the war now, though they deplore that.
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  #2  
Old 01 Aug 14, 13:06
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I'm shocked that Muslim fanatics would lie and deceive we infidels regarding this ceasefire.

I'm amazed it lasted as long as ninety minutes.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:18
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I suppose Hamas must have negotiated and agreed to the 72-hour ceasefire specifically to get hold of one or more hostages!! This seems an important event to me:

1. It's apparent that nothing Hamas says can be believed.

2. They realize Israel puts a high value on kidnapped persons, so that's their best shot for gaining power. The incursions from tunnels into Israel aiming to pick up citizens have been for the same purpose. They'll keep this up, because at least then they get Israel's attention --------- and a lot of fighters released from jail, hundreds or thousands per Israeli.

3. Surely the world must be getting a little disillusioned with Hamas?

4. What way will this hostage twist the war? He may be British, too, the news says: British-Israeli.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phebe View Post
I suppose Hamas must have negotiated and agreed to the 72-hour ceasefire specifically to get hold of one or more hostages!! This seems an important event to me:

1. It's apparent that nothing Hamas says can be believed.

2. They realize Israel puts a high value on kidnapped persons, so that's their best shot for gaining power. The incursions from tunnels into Israel aiming to pick up citizens have been for the same purpose. They'll keep this up, because at least then they get Israel's attention --------- and a lot of fighters released from jail, hundreds or thousands per Israeli.

3. Surely the world must be getting a little disillusioned with Hamas?

4. What way will this hostage twist the war? He may be British, too, the news says: British-Israeli.
Actually he's a POW.

Israel appears( its not certain) to have hit on the best way to oust Hamas- bring in Earth moving equipment, dig down to the tunnel level, then flood the damaged tunnels with 60 ft of Water.
I expect to see the Five miles between Gaza and the Egyptian border down out, which cripples Hamas.

And restores the Hydrological balance to the Gaza Aquifer.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:42
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4. What way will this hostage twist the war?
The Israelis might step back and be more willing to negotiate; in the past, they did.

But they might do the opposite, i.e. intensify the operations. They might even decide that this time they won't trade. If that's their choice, I'd expect Gazan casualties to increase, because one way to reduce the chances of another kidnapping is to use more firepower around one's soldiers.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:47
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Actually he's a POW.
Yes, I suppose you are right. It's an active war, so Goldin is a prisoner of war.

If the Hamas raiders who came through the tunnels into Israel carrying handcuffs and so on had abducted civilians locally, however, they'd be called hostages. That's what the Belgian citizens were called when the Germans took them prisoner in WWI.

Theoretically, the POWs are released when the war is over.

Yeah, sure.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:51
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
The Israelis might step back and be more willing to negotiate; in the past, they did.

But they might do the opposite, i.e. intensify the operations. They might even decide that this time they won't trade. If that's their choice, I'd expect Gazan casualties to increase, because one way to reduce the chances of another kidnapping is to use more firepower around one's soldiers.

The first reaction was more firepower, as you have seen from the news.

If Hamas is counting on Israel bending over backward to save this one lost sheep, Israel would be smart to do the opposite. One cannot present weaknesses and vulnerabilities to the enemy. They've lost 58 soldiers already and seem to war with high intelligence --- I'm thinking they may increase attacks and let Goldin take his changes, as he was doing in any case, but any new ceasefire will be contingent on Hamas returning this prisoner --------- or his body.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:54
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For a history focused forum, "interesting" how few seem to do much history here. the following article sums it up well and the slide show illustrates how Hamas is willing to use their own women and children as "holy warriors" which blurs this whole issue of "civilians" ...

EXCERPT:

Although in 2005 Israel gave up Gaza to the Palestinians in a naive "land for peace" unilateral withdrawal, the result was not peace but rather over 10,000 rockets fired from Gaza at Israeli civilian communities. Here we show how Hamas and other groups weaponize Palestinian civilians and institutions to attack Israel.

Background:
The Hamas Charter of 1988 - Defines the Hamas Mission Against Israel and Jews
  • Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.
  • Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realized.
  • The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

http://grid.pjmedia.com/?cmd=view-sh...rticle&id=1934

And here is the text of Hamas Charter. Like many text of recent times from "Jihadists", exciting reading (But informative and essential)

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement


18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


Basically Hamas exists to eliminate Israel so it's amazing/amusing that so many in the West think Hamas is an org. that can be negotiated with
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:54
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Originally Posted by Phebe View Post
...We do look rather foolish, I think!...
Why? We didn't break the truce. Was anyone na´ve enough to think Hamas would honor a truce, up to and including Mr. Kerry?
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:56
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Yes, I suppose you are right. It's an active war, so Goldin is a prisoner of war.
No, of course. He's a victim of kidnapping. The poster you are replying to is very badly informed.

If he were a POW, or if Shalit had been a POW, they would have been granted rights by their captors that are specified in detail in Geneva III 1949. Shalit was never granted those rights, and I very much doubt this lieutenant will be.

Among the other rights, the POW is entitled to let his family know his POW camp's address! Of course Hamas is unable to comply with this requirement; if they let the Israeli know where an abductee is caged, they'd lose the abductee soon. Indeed, they have to treat the abductee in the way all terrorist organizations treat their hostages, not in the way a responsible combatant who is a signatory of Conventions defining the POW status will behave.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 13:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
Why? We didn't break the truce. Was anyone na´ve enough to think Hamas would honor a truce, up to and including Mr. Kerry?
Given Kerry's track record, I wouldn't be surprised if he thought they would. Man's whole career is built upon delusions.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 14:13
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Why? We didn't break the truce. Was anyone na´ve enough to think Hamas would honor a truce, up to and including Mr. Kerry?
Interestingly enough, Hamas is under 'stress' simply due to the Great Israeli tunnel dig. They know that as soon as the dig moves up the Philadelphi road, they lose their revenue source - the smugglers tunnels.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 15:46
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
I'm shocked that Muslim fanatics would lie and deceive we infidels regarding this ceasefire.

I'm amazed it lasted as long as ninety minutes.
No joke.

And HAMAS wonders why their credibility is in the toilet. After yet another betrayal and outrage, who can take them as anything other than rabid dogs needing to be put down?
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Old 01 Aug 14, 15:54
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
For a history focused forum, "interesting" how few seem to do much history here. the following article sums it up well and the slide show illustrates how Hamas is willing to use their own women and children as "holy warriors" which blurs this whole issue of "civilians" ...

Basically Hamas exists to eliminate Israel so it's amazing/amusing that so many in the West think Hamas is an org. that can be negotiated with
Well, the Hamas negotiators DID agree! You are basically saying there is no point in ever negotiating with them.

Which may well be the case, as this latest deliberate ceasefire abrogation shows.

I think it is difficult for Western people to recognize that a lot of cultures simply don't honor truth-telling. I know it's difficult for me. They think people who believe what other people say are fools who should be taken advantage of quickly. Too many Westerners, or people who have come to live in the West, also think this way....



But here's what really confuses me:

We KNOW Hamas says that they are holy warriors who are delighted to be martyrs, and so are their wives and so are their children. So it's perfectly okay to put rockets in their schools and use them as human shields.

So why are they complaining when they get bombed?? You see photos of Palestinians moaning and carrying on about dead bombed people, when their leaders say they are all happy as clams to die.

And worse: why does the rest of the world complain? By Hamas' own claims, there is no problem at all with them dying, so I don't know why Europeans and what not are protesting their getting their just deserts. I mean, hey, if they say they want to be martyrs, sounds like permission to fire at will to me.

Can anybody explain this to me? It seems schizophrenic!
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Old 01 Aug 14, 15:59
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Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
Why? We didn't break the truce. Was anyone na´ve enough to think Hamas would honor a truce, up to and including Mr. Kerry?
That's why we Americans look foolish. Because Kerry worked hard to get a truce that Hamas simply used to get a hostage.

He must have thought it would hold: he meant to build on it for a longer ceasefire, the news said.

I'm getting a little tired of Kerry. He has the same problem George Bush and Barack Obama have: no success ever, ever, ever, ever.

The whole world is churning with the Winds of War, the Wall Street Journal mentioned that term twice in one issue, and Kerry flies continually all over the world including India (INDIA??? Why India? to look busy, I guess) and fails at pretty much everything he tries on.

I realize he wants to run for prez or vice-prez, but I can't say his record is any better than the Bush and Obama records of failure.


Go home, Kerry. Rest. Go to Maine. Take a vacation.
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