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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #46  
Old 31 Jul 14, 03:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Presumably using a protected site (school, hospital, religious building, etc.) for military purposes.
Presumably those would be Hamas crimes rather than UNWRA unless they could prove that UNWRA knowingly gave permission for its premises to be used.
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  #47  
Old 31 Jul 14, 03:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Presumably using a protected site (school, hospital, religious building, etc.) for military purposes.
Assuming the applicable international law standards are those of Additional Protocol I (questionable, but let's go with the toughest provisions for the protection of civilians), using a civilian building for military purposes is not a violation, per se.

OTOH, doing so while pretending the civilian building still is nothing but a civilian building and is not being used for military purposes, well, that is a violation. Article 48. And that is something Hamas does all the time.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't describe this as a "UNRWA war crime". That would amount to saying that the UNRWA is an accomplice in this. Entirely possible, mind you; the UNRWA has been there for decades, lots of its personnel are locals, and both it as an agency and the personnel must have a way of living elbow to elbow with terrorist having state-like power in that wretched place.
Yet, before making such accusations, one would need some evidence.
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  #48  
Old 31 Jul 14, 03:38
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Given that UNWRA employees are - according to their own website - "almost all refugees", a proportional number of them are quite likely Hamas militants or at least sympthatizers.

Goes a long way towards explaining how their buildings came to be munition depots and why the Israelis consider them legitimate targets.

Seriously discredits others operating under the UN flag with more impartial intentions imho -
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  #49  
Old 31 Jul 14, 05:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Given that UNWRA employees are - according to their own website - "almost all refugees", a proportional number of them are quite likely Hamas militants or at least sympthatizers.

Goes a long way towards explaining how their buildings came to be munition depots and why the Israelis consider them legitimate targets.

Seriously discredits others operating under the UN flag with more impartial intentions imho -
No doubt. It's hard, in a Dictatorship, to avoid going along with the 'Controls.'
Death is too common, and who supports your family then?

Which raises the interesting question- who's standards do we operate on? Despite all the promises of smart munitions, we end up with
'fog of war' too easily.
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  #50  
Old 31 Jul 14, 05:07
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Not blaming Gazans for using this obvious manner to improve their chances, la guerre comme la guerre -

In another thread I said I recently if I was born in Gaza I would likely be a terrorist,

I'd like to change that to

"..I'd likely work for UNWRA and provide various "services" to Hamas and Israel alike."

If you get in deep enough this may provide a way out of there even, into the cushy seats of UN bureaucracy.

On the part of the UN however this is serious negligence, in no way should they tolerate this, since it completely descredits their other, better run operations.
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  #51  
Old 31 Jul 14, 10:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Not blaming Gazans for using this obvious manner to improve their chances, la guerre comme la guerre -
Sorry, but in that case the other side also is entitled to do what the heck they want to improve their chances. They are in war, too.
On the contrary, we see the likes of a couple of frequent posters here, and many news outlets of a certain political area, ready to decry Israeli operations if there is even just the suspicion of a violation of the laws of war.
But when it comes to the terrorists, well then they can do whatever they want? Not in my book.
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  #52  
Old 31 Jul 14, 23:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Not blaming Gazans for using this obvious manner to improve their chances, la guerre comme la guerre -

In another thread I said I recently if I was born in Gaza I would likely be a terrorist,

I'd like to change that to

"..I'd likely work for UNWRA and provide various "services" to Hamas and Israel alike."

If you get in deep enough this may provide a way out of there even, into the cushy seats of UN bureaucracy.

On the part of the UN however this is serious negligence, in no way should they tolerate this, since it completely descredits their other, better run operations.
You seem to think that all Gazans want out of Gaza which is simply not true. In a poll, over three quarters of the Gazans polled would prefer to remain in Gaza even if given the choice to go anywhere else in the world. In fact, about 7000 "Palestinians" enter Gaza yearly, offsetting the numbers leaving.

Not all Gazan are poor, there are at least 1400 to as many as 17000 millionaires in Hamas alone. What about Fatah and other organizations? The last time Gaza flared up, some member here posted some videos of the fat life of some Gazans.
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  #53  
Old 01 Aug 14, 01:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Which raises the interesting question- who's standards do we operate on? Despite all the promises of smart munitions, we end up with
'fog of war' too easily.
That's largely because it's intentional. A smart munition is only as smart as the person aiming it and the intelligence he has. When your enemies are intentionally trying to trick you into firing on their civilian population it gets very confusing very fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Sorry, but in that case the other side also is entitled to do what the heck they want to improve their chances. They are in war, too.
On the contrary, we see the likes of a couple of frequent posters here, and many news outlets of a certain political area, ready to decry Israeli operations if there is even just the suspicion of a violation of the laws of war.
But when it comes to the terrorists, well then they can do whatever they want? Not in my book.
I agree. So many people are all about moral equivalence when it comes to Israel and Palestine so why shouldn't they be held to the same standard? If it's ok for Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets and mortars into Israeli residential areas, then it's equally ok for the IDF to indiscriminately bombard Palestinian residential areas with bombs and artillery.

One set of rules for everybody. Unless everybody have to play fair, nobody does. That was the original concept behind the enforcement of the Hague and Geneva conventions because it works. You don't break the rules of war if you think your enemy will do much worse to you in return.
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  #54  
Old 01 Aug 14, 02:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Sorry, but in that case the other side also is entitled to do what the heck they want to improve their chances. They are in war, too.

On the contrary, we see the likes of a couple of frequent posters here, and many news outlets of a certain political area, ready to decry Israeli operations if there is even just the suspicion of a violation of the laws of war.
But when it comes to the terrorists, well then they can do whatever they want? Not in my book.
Yes, if Israel shut down UNWRA operations entirely on account of what is effectively collaboration with an armed enemy I couldn't say much about it,

obviously by the same line of reasoning as above, one can assume that a considerable amount of those refugee-employees are in fact Israeli informants, although likely less than Hamas operators, some probably both.

The point remains howver that as a supposedly "neutral" UN operation UNWRA fails miserably and reflects badly on other UN operations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
You seem to think that all Gazans want out of Gaza which is simply not true. In a poll, over three quarters of the Gazans polled would prefer to remain in Gaza even if given the choice to go anywhere else in the world. In fact, about 7000 "Palestinians" enter Gaza yearly, offsetting the numbers leaving.

Not all Gazan are poor, there are at least 1400 to as many as 17000 millionaires in Hamas alone. What about Fatah and other organizations? The last time Gaza flared up, some member here posted some videos of the fat life of some Gazans.
I think that ties back to the elephant in room everybody seems to ignore, if this was a regular land grab by either side, it'd have been settled long ago, it's not,

it is a religious struggle between two Abrahamic tribes over what they both consider their "holy land".

The quoted part refers to what I would do, I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim and consider that piece of desert worthless real-estate.

They can have it - I'd be on the first plane out assuming I can take with me what I love.

As for rich Gazans,

obviously wars offer tremendous opportunities to make your fortune, any number of Belgians got rich during German occupation and enjoyed happy retirements in Spain, South-America or Africa.

No surprise there.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 05:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
You seem to think that all Gazans want out of Gaza which is simply not true. In a poll, over three quarters of the Gazans polled would prefer to remain in Gaza even if given the choice to go anywhere else in the world. In fact, about 7000 "Palestinians" enter Gaza yearly, offsetting the numbers leaving.
Not surprising, after all they did vote Hamas in.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 05:21
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Hardly - I recently checked posted the results out of curiosity in another thread.

They had 47% of the vote iirc, they then sent their armed miltia into the street and killed whoever the remaining the 53% had voted for.

Just google "Battle for Gaza".

As for Palestinians going there to fight doesn't surprise me at all, holy land remember - Jews from all over to world go there to fight as well.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 05:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Hardly - I recently checked posted the results out of curiosity in another thread.

They had 47% of the vote iirc, they then sent their armed miltia into the street and killed whoever the remaining the 53% had voted for.

Just google "Battle for Gaza".

As for Palestinians going there to fight doesn't surprise me at all, holy land remember - Jews from all over to world go there to fight as well.
Yes its Wiki, but it seems pretty clear here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...election,_2006
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Old 01 Aug 14, 05:51
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Thanks that's the one yes,

Quote:
Hamas took 44.45% of the vote, whilst Fatah received 41.43%[1] and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%.
I'd conclude from that a majority of Gazans did not vote for Hamas - they got Hamas regardless.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 06:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Hardly - I recently checked posted the results out of curiosity in another thread.

They had 47% of the vote iirc, they then sent their armed miltia into the street and killed whoever the remaining the 53% had voted for.

Just google "Battle for Gaza".

As for Palestinians going there to fight doesn't surprise me at all, holy land remember - Jews from all over to world go there to fight as well.
Hamas has an interesting armed structure. They appear to 'contract out' the work t other gangs that 'want to be' part of Hamas.

In times of actual war, they seem to have limited command over the C & C structures. Rocket launches might lessen, but mortar rounds are launched by loose groups like I- Jehad.
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Old 01 Aug 14, 07:16
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Pyramidal command structure is typical for resistance movements or criminal operations,

one cell at the bottom gets infiltrated or broken should only compromise one "contact" above.
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