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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #16  
Old 22 Jul 14, 19:39
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  #17  
Old 22 Jul 14, 20:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
We're talking about a civilian UN agency here, the UNRWA, not about some UN military force under a peace-keeping or peace-enforcing mandate, either an effective or an ineffective one.

Expecting these civilians to hand over functioning ordnance to some other authority but the local one in control of the area is absurd; expecting these civilians to be able to deactivate live ordnance before handing it over is unrealistic; the final alternative is that these civilians could haul the stuff in some hole in the desert to blow it off harmlessly - at a time when there are Israeli drones overhead, likely to take an interest in such movements.

Just think about the practical ways in which any of these alternatives could be carried out by these untrained civilians.

The UN and its agencies can be criticized for a very long list of shortcomings; the very existence of the UNRWA could be argued against. But in this specific instance they did exactly the one possible thing.
that is a really good point.

HAMAS organised in Gaza with a lot of the Hells Angels template- you have 'Central Hamas'- clinics, wings, etc.
You have the 'striker arm' - The al quassin

You have a lot of 'want to be gangs- proving up, doing Shiite work, getting expended.
the 2005 riots that tore off the greenhouse coverings were organised by 'wanna be gangangs' - plausible deniability.

Sonny Barger would have been at home- no booze, though...

It did work- against Al Fatah. Now the 'hood wants them gone...
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  #18  
Old 24 Jul 14, 11:01
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Rockets found at UN Gaza school ‘have gone missing’
Ban Ki-moon expresses shock at the disappearance of the weapons, demands full review of incidents


http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets...-gone-missing/

How "shocking" that they have "disappeared"...I wonder where they went?
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  #19  
Old 24 Jul 14, 17:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Which links with the position, that could be reasonably argued for, that the UNRWA shouldn't exist, as I mentioned.

The UN have a worldwide agency whose purpose is to assist all refugees, the UNHCR. Then it has a temporary agency, established in 1949, whose sole purpose is to aid Palestinian refugees only.

And it's still around.

Under the UNRWA's own rules, a baby born in Jordan today, whose father was born in Jordan, and whose grandfather was born in Jordan, and whose grand-grand-father was born in some place that is now Israel since 1949 - wait for it - is a refugee, entitled to the UNRWA's help.
Crazy insane, but that's the U.N.
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  #20  
Old 24 Jul 14, 18:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yono View Post
Rockets found at UN Gaza school ‘have gone missing’
Ban Ki-moon expresses shock at the disappearance of the weapons, demands full review of incidents


http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets...-gone-missing/

How "shocking" that they have "disappeared"...I wonder where they went?
I'm sure his shock was actually "shock". Big difference between the two.
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Old 27 Jul 14, 10:53
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Something that's been bugging me all morning: the media is packed full of stories about how people in Gaza have no safe place to go, since all UN facilities are full. Yet all these rockets are supposedly found in vacant UN schools...
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  #22  
Old 27 Jul 14, 11:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anacreon View Post
Something that's been bugging me all morning: the media is packed full of stories about how people in Gaza have no safe place to go, since all UN facilities are full. Yet all these rockets are supposedly found in vacant UN schools...
Hamas denies the civilian's movement most of the time.

BTW- here's another piece that didn't hit the news as far as I've seen- it appears that Hamas had used UNRWA supplied cement and construction gear to dig the terror tunnels leading from Gaza into Israeli towns.
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  #23  
Old 27 Jul 14, 12:43
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Different perspective

The IDF preparation for ground operations was well publicized. In a similar situation a European nation would have evacuated the border areas. Granted there are not many places to go in Gaza, but a government responsible to its citizens would normally be expected to take any steps within its capacity to protect them. As you can see from the comments in this forum, there are a number of opinions as to why Hamas has gone this route.
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  #24  
Old 27 Jul 14, 23:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
Hamas denies the civilian's movement most of the time.
Yep. Some just can't grasp the concept of human shield.

Quote:
BTW- here's another piece that didn't hit the news as far as I've seen- it appears that Hamas had used UNRWA supplied cement and construction gear to dig the terror tunnels leading from Gaza into Israeli towns.
I had no doubt once I heard the tunnels used an estimated 800 tons of concrete. That is one big skyscraper! Hamas could have used that and the $10 million to help the people, but capturing and killing Jews was more important.
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  #25  
Old 28 Jul 14, 00:08
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This would explain why Hamas was crying so loud about the Israelis no allowing them cement for "construction". Since the tunnels are 'hardened', maybe the IDF should pump explosive gas inside the ones they find and explode them? It may get really interesting what also blows up. If the IDF blows up enough of them, maybe the people in Hamas will find something else to do.

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  #26  
Old 28 Jul 14, 04:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
I had no doubt once I heard the tunnels used an estimated 800 tons of concrete. That is one big skyscraper! Hamas could have used that and the $10 million to help the people, but capturing and killing Jews was more important.
If you scroll back, say to the time of the Mavi Marmara incident, you'll see some sheepish people asking me why is Israel not allowing concrete into Gaza and how that's a crime against humanity to not allow them to rebuild blah-blah-blah.

So far Gaza had proven to use all "humanitarian" assets to serve it's terrorist ideology. I guess it's bad diplomacy that the U.S administration decided to send $30 million dollar of "humanitarian aid" to Gaza and another $15 million to the U.N branch that is, apparently, in charge of building terror tunnels and weapon storage facilities in the front of "refugee assistance" commonly known as UNRWA.
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Old 28 Jul 14, 04:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
This would explain why Hamas was crying so loud about the Israelis no allowing them cement for "construction". Since the tunnels are 'hardened', maybe the IDF should pump explosive gas inside the ones they find and explode them? It may get really interesting what also blows up. If the IDF blows up enough of them, maybe the people in Hamas will find something else to do.

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Bay the looks of it now, the majority of the urban center of Gaza will evaporate.
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Old 29 Jul 14, 10:20
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
This would explain why Hamas was crying so loud about the Israelis no allowing them cement for "construction". Since the tunnels are 'hardened', maybe the IDF should pump explosive gas inside the ones they find and explode them? It may get really interesting what also blows up. If the IDF blows up enough of them, maybe the people in Hamas will find something else to do.

Pruitt
You mean a FAE large enough to explode anything the tunnels are connected to? If one does not know what they are connected to, that's by definition an indiscriminate attack, so I hope they don't.
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Old 29 Jul 14, 12:32
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The problem with hardened tunnels is how you collapse them. A Fuel Air Explosive type effect will collapse them. I will say I don't think Hamas gave the local residents any choice in the location of the tunnels. If the IDF decides to blow them, I would hope they evacuate the locals before doing so. I am not saying the IDF should let locals veto the plan, just that they should be allowed to evacuate.

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Old 29 Jul 14, 13:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The problem with hardened tunnels is how you collapse them. A Fuel Air Explosive type effect will collapse them. I will say I don't think Hamas gave the local residents any choice in the location of the tunnels. If the IDF decides to blow them, I would hope they evacuate the locals before doing so. I am not saying the IDF should let locals veto the plan, just that they should be allowed to evacuate.
Sorry, since you wrote "It may get really interesting what also blows up.", I wondered if you were proposing to pump the mixture in through one end and then ignite it without knowing where the other end/s is/are. OTOH if locals who might be harmed are invited to evacuate, then one needs to know the tunnel layout, and if locals are allowed to evacuate, then the attack would not be indiscriminate anyway.
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