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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #46  
Old 15 Jun 14, 02:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
That was my first thought also.



That's my impression also. Perhaps it is a wrong impression?



I know there was some native troubles in Canada, Louis Riel, etc., but my impression is that it was much less.

Just how involved were British regiments in policing the Canadian frontier? It is my impression that a few hundred mounted police were able to handle most problems.

I'm not sure either. What was British policy in Canada during the same era? Was the Hudson Bay Company doing something different than Astor and the Americans that produced a different response among the tribes? Would the Canadian model have worked in the US? Maybe some of the Canadians will chime in.


In a short version, the Canadian natives came up short.
the Metis struggled after the e buffalo economy collapsed. They staked out river lot farms, locally registered at the parish.

The Torrens land system did not recognise their claims. ( They had been allocated 'script' for lands , but much of the script was traded away.)

Canadian Natives were allocated reservations, but were hit hard by successive waves of disease. The average American Indian has a claim to three times as much tribal lands as the average Cdn -Native, Canadian Indians do have extensive hunting and fishing rights for subsidence.
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  #47  
Old 15 Jun 14, 07:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McMax View Post
The Foundering Fathers saw a future with Indians as intergraded citizens of the USA. The Indians would have to evolve in to a more settled agricultural way of life but they did want to find another way of living with Indians other that war and conquest.
As I understand it therein lies the rub. From the other side; what right have the white man to insist that the aboriginal folk adapt to his methods, accept his form of government, his social and cultural norms and values. In the truest sense of the word the Native American/American Indian/Red-Indian/First Nation - I use the term NA, Red Man or Aborigine as a rule - comprises a nation distinct from that of the United States American. If National self-governance is the aim then the aboriginal American should receive autonomy at least to the level of the Federal State if not more so for as long as it remains a national grouping.
At this juncture it may be worthwhile pointing out the difference between a state and a nation, which I have noticed conflated in the Politics Central board - a nation is a people, the state is the polity that a nation, sub-national group or supra-national group may form - it's political existence as opposed to its socio-cultural existence (the nation)
Assimilation into the 'white' way of doing things was going on before the US was established, presumably. (I don't claim to ken much about the history of the matter)
In the tribal groups in Africa the people still keep many of their traditions and that includes their government and such. HM King Goodwill, for example is king od the Zulu people;'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwil...ni_kaBhekuzulu
These things are important to the tribe, although they also work in the system of the modern state, economically and politically.
In terms of fairness to the aboriginal inhabitants however, perhaps NZ does a good job with reserved political representation ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81...representation the the existence of a ‘Maori party’ is somewhat disconcerting.
For other parallels it may be necessary to go further back, and to places which seem less likely as analogous. The Anglo-Saxon arrival in Britain and its interaction with the Britons may be worth a re-examination. The UK is a multi-national state which has, through various means over a long time, brought in the nationalities within its shores into one polity – these national groups now have various political controls – the Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament etc. Although it is an ongoing process which may see Scotland gain independence as something close to a Nation-State this year. In this way the US is perhaps more comparable as the nations of the Native American – the Lakota, Sioux, Cherokee, etc. live in one polity alongside the Anglo-Saxon-German-Celtic ‘American.’
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  #48  
Old 15 Jun 14, 08:48
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Originally Posted by jonny87kz View Post
I just had to do a paper on Indian mascots and names in sports. All the stuff I had to read through about the evil whites made me wonder what these people think should have happened.
If the ethnic boot had been on the other foot, as it were, regarding the proto-industrial age and the Age of Discovery, would the native tribes have acted much differently? Given that for proto-industrialisation and an Age of Discovery to occur the tribes would have had to stop bitching on each other and gelled into a greater form of nation. I suspect that they would have sent their fleets out looking for opportunity to expand trade and influence and domination.
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  #49  
Old 15 Jun 14, 12:19
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
You've missed the point, at which I am not surprised at all. From what I have seen and heard in teaching US history and at least attempting to keep up with current 'views' I have seen the term Indian and American Indian used by the Indians themselves, with 'Native American' being a PC term invented by others so as not to offend anyone, which is nonsense.

I'm sorry, but this posting of yours, along with some of the more inane that you've posted in the past certainly doesn't help the discussion at all and merely obfuscates the initial question which would have been interesting to discuss.

Sincerely,
M
I was being sarcastic and dismissive which is, on reflection, not necessarily the best way to further a discussion. The reason, not that you asked, was because it truly baffles me that people attribute groupthink to a wide ranging people and ignore their individuality.

So in a non-confrontational manner I believe that your definitive answer does not exist because there will be a range of views within any group of peoples. The question ignores the diverse nature of communities, tribes, nations and individuals and their experiences.
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  #50  
Old 16 Jun 14, 04:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
That was my first thought also.



That's my impression also. Perhaps it is a wrong impression?



I know there was some native troubles in Canada, Louis Riel, etc., but my impression is that it was much less.



Just how involved were British regiments in policing the Canadian frontier? It is my impression that a few hundred mounted police were able to handle most problems.



I'm not sure either. What was British policy in Canada during the same era? Was the Hudson Bay Company doing something different than Astor and the Americans that produced a different response among the tribes? Would the Canadian model have worked in the US? Maybe some of the Canadians will chime in.
My main thought on this is number being more manageable. The Canadian population to this day is really quite small in relation to the size of the nation. In the 18th and 19 th Century even more so.
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Old 16 Jun 14, 04:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McMax View Post
None of the major American Indian nations ever tried peaceful co-existence with Whites. White settlers face never ending raids and murders from tribes which various treaties did nothing to stop because Indians had no intention of ever stopping robbing, scalping and murdering them. There was never an American Indian Gandhi.

When the Pilgrims et.al. Arrived in America one of their goals was peaceful relation with the local tribes. They did not want war but were attack by Indians from the moment they landed. Even then they only defended themselves until Massasoit manipulated them into joining his war against another tribe.

The Foundering Fathers saw a future with Indians as intergraded citizens of the USA. The Indians would have to evolve in to a more settled agricultural way of life but they did want to find another way of living with Indians other that war and conquest.

During Washington’s presidency and serious attempt at this was tried with the Creek Indians of the Southeast, unfortunately the effort failed because of the Indians! The Creeks entered negotiations with no intentions of living up to any of the treaty’s obligations.
I'm not being funny mate but think about it. If you were of a tribe and people kept turning up on your land and not leaving , what would you have done? What would one do now if outsiders effectively invaded your territory. Exactly. None of what happened is at all surprising. That's why the PC thing is such a non starter.
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Old 16 Jun 14, 04:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
[/I][/I]

In a short version, the Canadian natives came up short.
the Metis struggled after the e buffalo economy collapsed. They staked out river lot farms, locally registered at the parish.

The Torrens land system did not recognise their claims. ( They had been allocated 'script' for lands , but much of the script was traded away.)

Canadian Natives were allocated reservations, but were hit hard by successive waves of disease. The average American Indian has a claim to three times as much tribal lands as the average Cdn -Native, Canadian Indians do have extensive hunting and fishing rights for subsidence.
There is a perception thatwas a lot less violence north of the border. No Canadian Geronimo, no Canadian Little Big Horn? Is that true, if so why was that?
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  #53  
Old 16 Jun 14, 06:46
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
I was being sarcastic and dismissive which is, on reflection, not necessarily the best way to further a discussion. The reason, not that you asked, was because it truly baffles me that people attribute groupthink to a wide ranging people and ignore their individuality.

So in a non-confrontational manner I believe that your definitive answer does not exist because there will be a range of views within any group of peoples. The question ignores the diverse nature of communities, tribes, nations and individuals and their experiences.
Agree-and I don't believe in groupthink.

It was a general question based on PC, nothing else. I told my students, when we were studying the American Indian, more specifically the Eastern Woodland Indians, that I didn't care for the term Native American and would use Indian. What they cared to use was their option.

I undoubtedly phrased my initial question awkwardly, and if that had been posed that way by someone else, I would have answered the same way you did.

My apologies for a terribly-phrased question. And we don't always need to be confrontational here, though sometimes it is necessary.

Sincerely,
M
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  #54  
Old 16 Jun 14, 08:39
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
There is a perception thatwas a lot less violence north of the border. No Canadian Geronimo, no Canadian Little Big Horn? Is that true, if so why was that?
Lots of small reasons, two big ones.

First, and the high point of ethical settlements, was that the Beaver wars of the 1650's had left an Empty Upper Canada that the 'outliers' of the Ojibwa, such as the Mississauga's, had filled- sparsely.

The Mississauga sold the land that was resettled by the British. Although the various "Turtle Island ' sites claim thy were 'tricked, they agreed to only 'share the land", yadayada...

The West is more complex, and a little darker.
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Old 16 Jun 14, 09:39
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Lots of small reasons, two big ones.

First, and the high point of ethical settlements, was that the Beaver wars of the 1650's had left an Empty Upper Canada that the 'outliers' of the Ojibwa, such as the Mississauga's, had filled- sparsely.

The Mississauga sold the land that was resettled by the British.

The West is more complex, and a little darker.
OK. Interesting thanks.
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  #56  
Old 16 Jun 14, 13:02
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OK. Interesting thanks.
Thanks Cope. Will Get to the West as time allows.

It marplot Breedin' season and the full moon sings to our blood - out here.

Having been called one s often, thought I might as well join them.

Wooohhoooo....
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Old 16 Jun 14, 13:12
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Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
If the ethnic boot had been on the other foot, as it were, regarding the proto-industrial age and the Age of Discovery, would the native tribes have acted much differently? Given that for proto-industrialisation and an Age of Discovery to occur the tribes would have had to stop bitching on each other and gelled into a greater form of nation. I suspect that they would have sent their fleets out looking for opportunity to expand trade and influence and domination.
Historically, whites breed faster, to put it- bluntly. Native women nursed babies for four years, having no domesticated supply of milk.

With the decline of lactate intolerance, non milk formulas, etc., the shoe is now on the other foot, in Canada. Whichis not necessarily a 'bad thing'. We could use more Aboriginals.
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Old 16 Jun 14, 13:53
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Agree-and I don't believe in groupthink.

It was a general question based on PC, nothing else. I told my students, when we were studying the American Indian, more specifically the Eastern Woodland Indians, that I didn't care for the term Native American and would use Indian. What they cared to use was their option.

I undoubtedly phrased my initial question awkwardly, and if that had been posed that way by someone else, I would have answered the same way you did.

My apologies for a terribly-phrased question. And we don't always need to be confrontational here, though sometimes it is necessary.

Sincerely,
M
No apologies needed. And I agree with you. You are right we do not need to always be confrontational on here - and I will certainly try to pause and consider my tone more often before hitting submit! The tone of my original comment was unnecessary - so apologies on my side too.
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Old 16 Jun 14, 14:39
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No apologies needed. And I agree with you. You are right we do not need to always be confrontational on here - and I will certainly try to pause and consider my tone more often before hitting submit! The tone of my original comment was unnecessary - so apologies on my side too.
You're a good man.

Sincerely,
M
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  #60  
Old 16 Jun 14, 15:57
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Regarding the OP, which seems to me to be excellently put and a great question, the term 'conquest' is not PC in itself as applied.

This is an excellent discussion question.

The four main European nations that colonized in the New World and confronted the Indians were the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, and the English.

The Spaniards and Portuguese enslaved and murdered, and the Portuguese would eventually run the African slave trade to the Americas.

However, the Aztecs and Incas were also conquerors and dealers in slavery. I don't really see much difference between them and the Spaniards who conquered them. There were plenty of Indian allies, for example, to aid Cortes in his conquest of Mexico because of the heavy-handedness of the Aztecs. Revenge is a great motivator.

I have found through research and teaching that the English and French treated the Indians that they found in North America much better than the Spanish and Portuguese did in Central and South America. That does not mean that there wasn't confrontation between the native tribes and the European powers. However, tribes took sides between the French and English in their wars in the 17th and 18th centuries, recognizing that they needed to take sides for survival.

It is also noteworthy that the Indians in the New World were not as too many times portrayed-peaceful, respectors of land, flora and fauna, and 'at one' with nature (for example, the James River in Virginia was polluted long before the English came, and they were warned about that situation by the local Indians). They were as bloody-minded as any Spaniard, Portuguese, Englishman or Frenchman and had waged war against any tribe not their own, and those wars were wars of annihilation. In many Indian tribes and peoples, the word for 'enemy' and 'stranger' were the same word.

So, things could have been a little different in North America, as the British and French at least tried for peace-and one of those efforts would be the British Proclamation of 1763 which forbade expansion into Indian lands beyond the Appalachians and became the catalyst for the American Revolution.

Indians allied themselves with the British in 1775-1783 and again in 1812-1815, though a few did ally themselves with the Americans.

And this situation in North America is only applicable to the Eastern Woodland Indians, who as a force in warfare make the western Plains Indians look peaceful.

So, conquest was conquest, and the stronger side won. That is the way of things, as we see even today. Were the Indians treated badly? Yes, they were. Were the Indians peaceful? No they were not.

It's an interesting subject and one of the historical periods that has too much incorrect and disinformation attached to it, and that is the PC problem with the subject.

Sincerely,
M
Great points!

I'd add that the largest decline in numbers of Natives occurred due to introduction of European diseases for which the locals had no immunities (part of the reason for reference to the book "1491" in earlier post). Initially this was not intentional on the part of the earlier explorers, truly one of the great accidents of contact in history. By the time major colonizing efforts on the mainland continent had started, most of the infections had done their damage.
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