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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #31  
Old 13 Jun 14, 18:16
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The real Indians were on the Beach at Malabar, looking at their watches, muttering:
"where the hell's Chris??"
Yeah, clam baking, taking tokes and getting a nice mellow buzz, getting laid, and wondering if these interlopers brought their own stash and chicks.
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  #32  
Old 13 Jun 14, 23:26
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Originally Posted by jonny87kz View Post
We have been hearing for years, how the evil white people came to America, stole the Indians land, and killed the Indians. While it most certainly was much more complex than this, I do feel sympathy for the Indians. They did get treated badly. I have often wondered how it could have been different. Could the US have given the Indians a better deal? How? Secondly, what do all the PC people think should have happened? I've never heard them say. Leaving all that under utilized land and resources for the Indians seems crazy, but what is their ideas on what should have happened? What would a PC conquest of North America look like?
I think it could have been very different. Basically, the Indians could have from a relatively early point (say 1760) merged their cultures with those of the European settlers. I think this would have led to 4 or 5 or 6 countries where the US and Canada are now. I definitely hold the view that if somehow the European settlement of America could be replayed/reset 100 times, you would get a continental country only a handful of times.

I actually started a thread on this that touched on these ideas, it involved Louisbourg not being given back to the French in 1748, and hence no American Revolution. There was little interest in the thread, so I stopped posting. Basically, I could see that if New Englanders had expanded North into the Maritimes as they were trying to do in the 1740's, settlement patterns of the US would have been different. Also, I think the Pennsylvania/Quaker/Franklin element of US history was the natural one that would have merged or amalgamated or "melting potted" with the Native Americans. I think you could have seen the richest country of North America develop around the Great Lakes. Below is a link to the thread:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ght=Louisbourg
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  #33  
Old 14 Jun 14, 02:13
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Funny, I search my heart and end up thinking that its actually a good thing that the US exists.

Guess that makes me a monster in this PC world.
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  #34  
Old 14 Jun 14, 08:38
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Regarding the OP, which seems to me to be excellently put and a great question, the term 'conquest' is not PC in itself as applied.

This is an excellent discussion question.

The four main European nations that colonized in the New World and confronted the Indians were the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, and the English.

The Spaniards and Portuguese enslaved and murdered, and the Portuguese would eventually run the African slave trade to the Americas.

However, the Aztecs and Incas were also conquerors and dealers in slavery. I don't really see much difference between them and the Spaniards who conquered them. There were plenty of Indian allies, for example, to aid Cortes in his conquest of Mexico because of the heavy-handedness of the Aztecs. Revenge is a great motivator.

I have found through research and teaching that the English and French treated the Indians that they found in North America much better than the Spanish and Portuguese did in Central and South America. That does not mean that there wasn't confrontation between the native tribes and the European powers. However, tribes took sides between the French and English in their wars in the 17th and 18th centuries, recognizing that they needed to take sides for survival.

It is also noteworthy that the Indians in the New World were not as too many times portrayed-peaceful, respectors of land, flora and fauna, and 'at one' with nature (for example, the James River in Virginia was polluted long before the English came, and they were warned about that situation by the local Indians). They were as bloody-minded as any Spaniard, Portuguese, Englishman or Frenchman and had waged war against any tribe not their own, and those wars were wars of annihilation. In many Indian tribes and peoples, the word for 'enemy' and 'stranger' were the same word.

So, things could have been a little different in North America, as the British and French at least tried for peace-and one of those efforts would be the British Proclamation of 1763 which forbade expansion into Indian lands beyond the Appalachians and became the catalyst for the American Revolution.

Indians allied themselves with the British in 1775-1783 and again in 1812-1815, though a few did ally themselves with the Americans.

And this situation in North America is only applicable to the Eastern Woodland Indians, who as a force in warfare make the western Plains Indians look peaceful.

So, conquest was conquest, and the stronger side won. That is the way of things, as we see even today. Were the Indians treated badly? Yes, they were. Were the Indians peaceful? No they were not.

It's an interesting subject and one of the historical periods that has too much incorrect and disinformation attached to it, and that is the PC problem with the subject.

Sincerely,
M
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  #35  
Old 14 Jun 14, 10:11
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Have any of you read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown? It's about the Indian perspective of the conquest (or loss) of the west. I really can't see the eastern part of America turning out much different than it did. Though perhaps without the trail of tears. I've often wondered what would have happened if the US would have honored the Treaty of Fort Laramie? Other than Custer dying of old age.
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  #36  
Old 14 Jun 14, 10:28
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I can see the Eastern US moving in three different directions - understanding this is all British North America at this point- the New Englanders moving northeast and north, the Southerners moving South along the coast/tidewater/east of the mountains, and the people pushing overland from PA, and from Virginia/North Carolina. I can see the overland people merging/marrying etc. with the Indians, and inevitably these different societies will form in different ways. As in actual events, the coastal cities states will look more to Britain than the inland areas. I also see the southerners looking to Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean for expansion, as they did in actual events.

And in such a scenario there won't be a central gov't from the East enforcing it's authority as happened with the Whiskey Rebellion (and Shay's Rebellion) etc.

So I see the further you get from the Ocean, the less the people look to Britain, and of course the less direct influence Britain has. Even if Britain does make a big push to control the Great Lakes, Eventually there will be no way they can maintain control mid-continent, and the Easterners for that matter will not have control (Again, there would not be a Continental Army/US Army in this scenario)

Without Eastern financial and transport control of the west, there won't be as much investment in canals, railroads, etc. So ultimately there will be less European movement into the interior from the East (including less of the huge Germanic movement into the midwest). And eventually there will be movements one way or another from Mexico/Texas, California, and the Northwest. And the Native Americans will have a larger population, as they won't be being killed off, or killed off as much as they were.

I can easily see a great country forming along the Great Lakes, north and South, maybe down to the Ohio Valley, out to the Mississippi. This could expand as far as where irrigation was not necessary. This is probably the best farmland in the world, and they would have a natural highway already there, the Great Lakes.

And in this region, and in the others, the Native American cultures have a much greater influence and survive stronger than they did in actual events. There is certainly no centralized Bureau of Indian Affairs setting up reservations, etc.

Some of the major native American groups I see interacting with Europeans moving into their area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois_Confederacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquian_peoples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_..._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Civilized_Tribes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abenaki_people

Last edited by lakechampainer; 14 Jun 14 at 19:20..
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  #37  
Old 14 Jun 14, 11:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
What happened in Canada.
That was my first thought also.

Quote:
I'll be honest my knowledge is limited but I hear less tales of killing etc?
That's my impression also. Perhaps it is a wrong impression?

Quote:
Not that it didn't happen I'm sure.
I know there was some native troubles in Canada, Louis Riel, etc., but my impression is that it was much less.

Quote:
Didn't the army and police go in first up there after it became more than trappers moving in?
Just how involved were British regiments in policing the Canadian frontier? It is my impression that a few hundred mounted police were able to handle most problems.

Quote:
Again I don't really know.
I'm not sure either. What was British policy in Canada during the same era? Was the Hudson Bay Company doing something different than Astor and the Americans that produced a different response among the tribes? Would the Canadian model have worked in the US? Maybe some of the Canadians will chime in.
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  #38  
Old 14 Jun 14, 12:33
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PC is actually worse than that. It is the desire not to offend anyone, which is a ludicrous object.

And as for using either 'Indians' or 'American Indians' I would really like to know what the Indians prefer to be called. I've never seen a definitive answer to that one.

Sincerely,
M
Given that there are numerous individuals who make up these communities, tribes and nations it is likely that not every single person shares one view. There is no 'definitive' answer. Do you also think that all black people think the same thing?
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  #39  
Old 14 Jun 14, 15:51
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Given that there are numerous individuals who make up these communities, tribes and nations it is likely that not every single person shares one view. There is no 'definitive' answer. Do you also think that all black people think the same thing?
You've missed the point, at which I am not surprised at all. From what I have seen and heard in teaching US history and at least attempting to keep up with current 'views' I have seen the term Indian and American Indian used by the Indians themselves, with 'Native American' being a PC term invented by others so as not to offend anyone, which is nonsense.

I'm sorry, but this posting of yours, along with some of the more inane that you've posted in the past certainly doesn't help the discussion at all and merely obfuscates the initial question which would have been interesting to discuss.

Sincerely,
M
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  #40  
Old 14 Jun 14, 16:18
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
You've missed the point, at which I am not surprised at all. From what I have seen and heard in teaching US history and at least attempting to keep up with current 'views' I have seen the term Indian and American Indian used by the Indians themselves, with 'Native American' being a PC term invented by others so as not to offend anyone, which is nonsense.

I'm sorry, but this posting of yours, along with some of the more inane that you've posted in the past certainly doesn't help the discussion at all and merely obfuscates the initial question which would have been interesting to discuss.

Sincerely,
M
Quote:
PC is actually worse than that. It is the desire not to offend anyone, which is a ludicrous object.

And as for using either 'Indians' or 'American Indians' I would really like to know what the Indians prefer to be called. I've never seen a definitive answer to that one.
Sincerely,
M
You expressed an interest in what Indians/Native American/First Nations, etc, etc preferred to be called and pointed out that you had not seen a definitive answer to that.

And yet you find it inane to have someone say that there would be a variety of opinions because not all people think alike? That you could not see that point to begin with is surprising.

The point over labels, terms and names is that there is often a history to it and some of that is often negative. If some people prefer a different term then it is often understandable. Others might be ok with it. I would suggest that you reread post 15 by HMS Jr to get the point.

Asking for a definitive answer to what an entire group of people think is silly. An entire group will not all think alike - be it racial, religious, national, etc? It would have been a different question had you asked what proportion of people prefer a, b, c, etc.
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  #41  
Old 14 Jun 14, 16:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
You expressed an interest in what Indians/Native American/First Nations, etc, etc preferred to be called and pointed out that you had not seen a definitive answer to that.

And yet you find it inane to have someone say that there would be a variety of opinions because not all people think alike? That you could not see that point to begin with is surprising.

The point over labels, terms and names is that there is often a history to it and some of that is often negative. If some people prefer a different term then it is often understandable. Others might be ok with it. I would suggest that you reread post 15 by HMS Jr to get the point.

Asking for a definitive answer to what an entire group of people think is silly. An entire group will not all think alike - be it racial, religious, national, etc? It would have been a different question had you asked what proportion of people prefer a, b, c, etc.
I termed your posting inane because it was condescending and obtuse which it didn't need to be.

Perhaps next time you could just ask a question instead of being insulting? That would be both nice and a great change.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 14 Jun 14, 16:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
You expressed an interest in what Indians/Native American/First Nations, etc, etc preferred to be called and pointed out that you had not seen a definitive answer to that.

And yet you find it inane to have someone say that there would be a variety of opinions because not all people think alike? That you could not see that point to begin with is surprising.

The point over labels, terms and names is that there is often a history to it and some of that is often negative. If some people prefer a different term then it is often understandable. Others might be ok with it. I would suggest that you reread post 15 by HMS Jr to get the point.

Asking for a definitive answer to what an entire group of people think is silly. An entire group will not all think alike - be it racial, religious, national, etc? It would have been a different question had you asked what proportion of people prefer a, b, c, etc.
And befriended many Natives, I find that they overwhelmingly prefer to be called by their names, or "Mister, Miss, Ms, " on a formal level.

heck...
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Old 14 Jun 14, 18:17
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None of the major American Indian nations ever tried peaceful co-existence with Whites. White settlers face never ending raids and murders from tribes which various treaties did nothing to stop because Indians had no intention of ever stopping robbing, scalping and murdering them. There was never an American Indian Gandhi.

When the Pilgrims et.al. Arrived in America one of their goals was peaceful relation with the local tribes. They did not want war but were attack by Indians from the moment they landed. Even then they only defended themselves until Massasoit manipulated them into joining his war against another tribe.

The Foundering Fathers saw a future with Indians as intergraded citizens of the USA. The Indians would have to evolve in to a more settled agricultural way of life but they did want to find another way of living with Indians other that war and conquest.

During Washington’s presidency and serious attempt at this was tried with the Creek Indians of the Southeast, unfortunately the effort failed because of the Indians! The Creeks entered negotiations with no intentions of living up to any of the treaty’s obligations.
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Old 14 Jun 14, 19:07
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It would be interesting if North America were divided up between the various colonial powers.

The Spanish hold on to Florida and most of the Southwest and West coast.
The Russians grab Alaska and the West coast above San Francisco.
The Dutch hold onto the area around modern day New York City.
France has holdings in Eastern Canada and along the Mississippi River including New Orleans.
The British get most of the Eastern US.
If all these colonial powers actually tried to hold on to their part of the US things could have been very interesting and much more fragmented.
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Old 15 Jun 14, 00:19
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TAG - another continent devastated by the World Wars... yeah, that sounds fair.
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