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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #16  
Old 13 Jun 14, 12:05
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What happened in Canada . I'll be honest my knowledge is limited but I hear less tales of killing etc? Not that it didn't happen I'm sure . Didn't the army and police go in first up there after it became more than trappers moving in? Again I don't really know
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  #17  
Old 13 Jun 14, 13:38
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A lot of what occurred that ended Native Americans on most parts of the continent had more to do with technology than military conquest.

Some examples:

Europeans initially occupied land that was not inhabited per se by any particular tribe. The tribes for the most part didn't care so long as the Europeans weren't overly aggressive (yes, many were but that's separate here). That is when the technological problems start.
The Europeans clear cut land and removed stumps from fields. They introduce crop rotation and a range of livestock.
They also fence fields with rock or wood fences or with hedges.
This is in contrast to the Indians who move their planting sites every few years and plant around trees because they have no way to easily remove them.
European livestock gets away. Feral pigs, cattle, sheep, whatever loose eat Indian crops that are unfenced. This more than occasionally brought crop failures to Indian tribes who faced starvation as a result.
Earthworms and honey bees are two more.
Firearms gave Europeans the advantage in taking down game. The plains tribes were decimated more by the mass killing of buffalo.
Barbed wire was another major blow to nomadic plains tribes.
It is more that what were really late stone age cultures came up against Industrial Age cultures and couldn't survive the social and technological shifts involved.

Now, I will agree the Cherokee got royally screwed by Andrew Jackson (The trail of tears) as they as a tribe tried very had and mostly successfully to adapt to European culture and technology. Their forced displacement was more one of racism than anything else.
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  #18  
Old 13 Jun 14, 14:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
So who wants to be PC? I most certainly don't. I'd rather be historically correct at least most of the time.

So, Indians it is.

Sincerely,
M
I agree, but it wouldn't have done my grade any good.
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  #19  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:00
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Originally Posted by HMS Jr. View Post
Or specific tribal name as the occasion suits. One guy's PC might be another guy's matter of preference of ID reference.
Manners and respecting what another person or people like to be addressed as predates conceptions and notions of PC a very, very long time.
PC is actually worse than that. It is the desire not to offend anyone, which is a ludicrous object.

And as for using either 'Indians' or 'American Indians' I would really like to know what the Indians prefer to be called. I've never seen a definitive answer to that one.

Sincerely,
M
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  #20  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:03
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Quote:
What would a PC conquest of North America look like?
Only one possible result;
The Indians conquer Europe.
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  #21  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
A lot of what occurred that ended Native Americans on most parts of the continent had more to do with technology than military conquest.

Some examples:

Europeans initially occupied land that was not inhabited per se by any particular tribe. The tribes for the most part didn't care so long as the Europeans weren't overly aggressive (yes, many were but that's separate here). That is when the technological problems start.
The Europeans clear cut land and removed stumps from fields. They introduce crop rotation and a range of livestock.
They also fence fields with rock or wood fences or with hedges.
This is in contrast to the Indians who move their planting sites every few years and plant around trees because they have no way to easily remove them.
European livestock gets away. Feral pigs, cattle, sheep, whatever loose eat Indian crops that are unfenced. This more than occasionally brought crop failures to Indian tribes who faced starvation as a result.
Earthworms and honey bees are two more.
Firearms gave Europeans the advantage in taking down game. The plains tribes were decimated more by the mass killing of buffalo.
Barbed wire was another major blow to nomadic plains tribes.
It is more that what were really late stone age cultures came up against Industrial Age cultures and couldn't survive the social and technological shifts involved.

Now, I will agree the Cherokee got royally screwed by Andrew Jackson (The trail of tears) as they as a tribe tried very had and mostly successfully to adapt to European culture and technology. Their forced displacement was more one of racism than anything else.
And small pox. Now I'm not a believer in the whole blanket story, so I tend to look at is as an unfortunate by product of two worlds meeting, but that smashed the native population. Maybe more than we will ever know. People that hadn't even met the white man were wiped out by the tidal wave of the disease.
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  #22  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:15
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Columbus was supposed to lead at Goa

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Jr. View Post
Quite true and no debate whatsoever. Things didn't decidedly, and it's been too late for a long time to stuff the **** back into the donkey. Granted. However, the occasional, and only if token, remedy and/or redress isn't such a bad thing and gesture either if we care to address both sides of the convenience/inconvenience/inconvenienced equation.
It's only a name, not a nation we're talking about. Cheap at a comparative price.
The real Indians were on the Beach at Malabar, looking at their watches, muttering:
"where the hell's Chris??"
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  #23  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:18
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Something to revisit.



Not saying he's totally correct, but it's worth the time to watch...
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  #24  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
And small pox. Now I'm not a believer in the whole blanket story, so I tend to look at is as an unfortunate by product of two worlds meeting, but that smashed the native population. Maybe more than we will ever know. People that hadn't even met the white man were wiped out by the tidal wave of the disease.
Part of the concepts in the following recommended read. The die was cast once Columbus and other explorers started coming to the new lands;
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491_%28book%29
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  #25  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Something to revisit.



Not saying he's totally correct, but it's worth the time to watch...
Even better, read his book and the following "Collapse". Maybe not 100% correct, but in the 90+% range at least.
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  #26  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:42
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Originally Posted by jonny87kz View Post
I agree, but it wouldn't have done my grade any good.
I understand that completely, unfortunately.

When I was taking my masters, the last seminar we took was 'Race and Gender in Military History.' Needless to say, I was not looking forward to it.

Fortunately, and surprisingly, it wasn't a PC course, was full of good information and discussion, and was the best seminar of the six we had to take for the degree.

Sincerely,
M
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  #27  
Old 13 Jun 14, 16:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Part of the concepts in the following recommended read. The die was cast once Columbus and other explorers started coming to the new lands;
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491_%28book%29
I'll chase up a copy of that. It seems interesting and balanced. Thanks.
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Old 13 Jun 14, 17:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Something to revisit.



Not saying he's totally correct, but it's worth the time to watch...
He left a major one out: Organization.

The Europeans were organized on a different set of rules. Land was owned. The population when mobilized for war didn't fight for the leader but rather for riches, land, and other self gain in many cases. Certainly the conquistadors did.
They also fought as an organization. If the leader fell there was somebody to replace him. Soldiers relied on the men next to them as much as their own skills. They fought together as a unit.

The Native Americans were organized tribally. There was a leader and you fought with and for the leader. He goes down and nobody replaces him. "Soldiers" fought as individuals in one-on-one combat not in ranks trained to follow commands.
It was a mob versus an army most of the time and the Indians usually lost.
Skirmishing and sniping could be effective some times particularly if the Europeans didn't know how to counter it.
Fortifications and cannon are a whole new game for the Native Americans as well. They have no way to deal with these whatsoever.

Society is the same. The Europeans had the means to form more than villages and organize production of everything on a scale the Native Americans couldn't imagine. That means they have more goods and resources to use.

A tribal society has severe limitations. You see this in Afghanistan and the Middle East. It is a major reason those areas are so jacked up today.
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  #29  
Old 13 Jun 14, 17:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Part of the concepts in the following recommended read. The die was cast once Columbus and other explorers started coming to the new lands;
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491_%28book%29
That is a very interesting book that made the rounds in my circles...
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Old 13 Jun 14, 18:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post

1. PC is actually worse than that.

1B. It is the desire not to offend anyone, which is a ludicrous object.

2. And as for using either 'Indians' or 'American Indians' I would really like to know what the Indians prefer to be called. I've never seen a definitive answer to that one.

Sincerely,
M
1. I tend to agree, situationally dependent of course.

1B. Hmmm. May I add at times difficult as well?

2. Of those I've known and met informally, if it came up just by their given-name. Formally and if one feels inclined, their given-name and tribal affiliation, and then a further sub-qualifier.

There's a wonderful example of this in the film Windtalkers. Ever see it? The character "Ben Yahzee" (Adam Beach) provides it to the character played by Nicholas Cage, and then from that character to some schmuck full-bird. Couldn't find a YouTube of it, but here's a text of the same example...

"I thought he was a Jap, killed some Marine for that uniform! He looks like a Jap, don't he?".

"I'm no damn Injun, I'm Navajo, of the bitter water people, son of the towering house clan".

***

I'm just tossing this in because I've made mental note you come-off as an even-handed kind of poster, 'Mass.

You ever read some of the heavy-handed no slack and more aggressive and shitty commentary (to me, of course) and directed at illegal aliens, and other possible unwanted people for whatever reason(s), by others and in no uncertain terms of those brown in color and to the south of our southern border? I could go on, but I'll stop there. Now if so, can you just imagine what the tribes of those here in the USA before everybody else showed up must have been thinking either individually and/or collectively when white people showed up, and later on bringing schwartzes with them?!

Talk about the original, "Awww ****, there's goes the neighborhood, big time".
Not for nothing, but I bet, more or less, the Aztecs et al felt the same way when Cortez pulled up in the bay and disembarked.

Empathy, and taking a hike in the other guy's shoes.
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