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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Modern Wars & Warfare > Military Medicine

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Military Medicine Discuss aspects of this specialist field not covered in other forums.

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  #16  
Old 29 Apr 14, 15:24
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Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
Hi Db,have no answers to this quandary but what always amazes me about it is,publicly to the general world it is a new problem! Yet what about the absolute thousands that came home from the two World Wars? ..1
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I truly believe that part of the problem here is simply the system. If you have more police you get more arrests. If you have more psychologists you get more crazy people.

.........

What's called PTSD today was looked at very carefully in WW 2 particularly by John Appel and Gilbert Beebe.

Get a copy of this sometime:

http://books.google.es/books/about/V...d=O0YrAAAAYAAJ

They followed 100 infantry companies in the MTO and ETO from entry in combat to the end of the war.
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
...
Can it be that we over medicate? Is there a relationship between medicine and violent crime? May of our mass murderer's have been on one drug or another?
Adding these up & others that followed one can point to veterans after other wars self medicating, mostly with with alcohol.
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  #17  
Old 29 Apr 14, 17:06
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Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Transportation, Military Police.... Medical? That might explain it.
Since women make up a much smaller overall percentage of the military, and virtually none in combat arms, their higher ratio of PTSD still doesn't make sense to me.
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  #18  
Old 29 Apr 14, 20:31
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Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
Adding these up & others that followed one can point to veterans after other wars self medicating, mostly with with alcohol.
Actually, one of Beebe's findings was that most of the time PTSD took care of itself as the person ended up a KIA.
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  #19  
Old 29 Apr 14, 22:14
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"Adding these up & others that followed one can point to veterans after other wars self medicating, mostly with alcohol."

I don’t know, was that Sgt. at Fort Hood - the one who shot up all those GI’s - “self medicating”?

He was trying to claim PTSD even though he was never under fire anywhere.

I do believe in PTSD, but I think there are a lot of men/women who are just trying to “cash in” and have been raised in the era of everyone’s a victim - it has to be somebody else’s fault.

This is taking away care from those who truly need it.
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  #20  
Old 30 Apr 14, 03:29
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
t.

In other wars we knew when we could go home, even if it meant at the end of the war. Korea and Nam we had 13 months to do an unless your MOS was in short supply you were done with Nam. Now what do the people have. Deploy for 13 months and "readjust" for 13 and then back to do it all over again. Seems a lot for a person to do and stay healthy. Some troops have had 3, 5 or more deployments and that with a combat unit. Why do so many look for a way out?

Can it be that we over medicate? Is there a relationship between medicine and violent crime? May of our mass murderer's have been on one drug or another?
I think the World has got too clever by half and where there is a payout involved all the 'Smart Alecs' male and female want a cut of the cake,what it boils down to is there is a need for such treatment but the dodgy ones are jumping on the bandwaggon and are going to slowly kill the Goose that is laying the Golden egg!! lcm1
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  #21  
Old 30 Apr 14, 03:51
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One thing I noticed in my 27 or so years with the Navy was that women were far, far more willing to use an excuse / "the system" to get out of something than men were.

This often included their not wanting assignment to "dirty" jobs, wanting to do paperwork / office work even though that wasn't in their rating.

The Shore Intermediate Maintenance Activity (SIMA) in San Diego was a command I was attached to for quite a while. The joke was SIMA stood for "Sailors in Maternity Attire" from the number of women that deliberately got pregnant to avoid deployment on ships.

Another one I ran into was claims of sexual harassment by females when they couldn't get their way. Often the man involved (usually the female's supervisor) was held guilty until proved innocent and the female got transferred or what she wanted.

My usual tactic with this sort of problem child was to "accommodate" them in a manner that added to their misery.

For example I remember a female non-rate that was working for me. The shop was modifying Maverick missile shipping containers a Naval Weapons Station. She was assigned the task of wiping off the old stencils with MEK.
I put her in the parking lot outdoors so there was adequate ventilation per the MSDS to do it.
She complained that the stuff was getting on her uniform. Into tyvek coveralls she went.
She complained about the odor making her "dizzy." I marched her to medical where she was instructed and test fitted for a half mask respirator and put back on cleaning stencils in a matter of about 30 minutes.
Now, this is in Arizona in the summertime... She was not a happy camper but she didn't get her way.
Had she complained about the heat I'd have made sure to tell her to drink lots of fluids but since the health people from the AFB next door didn't black flag the day she had nothing else coming.

Rules are a two edged weapon and you should be careful which ones you try and pull on the Chief because you might just get what you wish for...
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  #22  
Old 30 Apr 14, 04:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
One thing I noticed in my 27 or so years with the Navy was that women were far, far more willing to use an excuse / "the system" to get out of something than men were.

This often included their not wanting assignment to "dirty" jobs, wanting to do paperwork / office work even though that wasn't in their rating.

The Shore Intermediate Maintenance Activity (SIMA) in San Diego was a command I was attached to for quite a while. The joke was SIMA stood for "Sailors in Maternity Attire" from the number of women that deliberately got pregnant to avoid deployment on ships.

Another one I ran into was claims of sexual harassment by females when they couldn't get their way. Often the man involved (usually the female's supervisor) was held guilty until proved innocent and the female got transferred or what she wanted.

My usual tactic with this sort of problem child was to "accommodate" them in a manner that added to their misery.

For example I remember a female non-rate that was working for me. The shop was modifying Maverick missile shipping containers a Naval Weapons Station. She was assigned the task of wiping off the old stencils with MEK.
I put her in the parking lot outdoors so there was adequate ventilation per the MSDS to do it.
She complained that the stuff was getting on her uniform. Into tyvek coveralls she went.
She complained about the odor making her "dizzy." I marched her to medical where she was instructed and test fitted for a half mask respirator and put back on cleaning stencils in a matter of about 30 minutes.
Now, this is in Arizona in the summertime... She was not a happy camper but she didn't get her way.
Had she complained about the heat I'd have made sure to tell her to drink lots of fluids but since the health people from the AFB next door didn't black flag the day she had nothing else coming.

Rules are a two edged weapon and you should be careful which ones you try and pull on the Chief because you might just get what you wish for...
More than one of my supervisors on the railroad said if you want to get rid of a really stupid safety rule.............Follow it.They are usually time consuming and costly and do very little if any good toward safety.
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  #23  
Old 30 Apr 14, 04:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
I think the World has got too clever by half and where there is a payout involved all the 'Smart Alecs' male and female want a cut of the cake,what it boils down to is there is a need for such treatment but the dodgy ones are jumping on the bandwaggon and are going to slowly kill the Goose that is laying the Golden egg!! lcm1
A good friend of mine once commented on PTSD.He felt a lot of those afflicted had issues before they were in any combat. I guess that follows what hackworth said about the bottle getting full. Some people had a bottle half full before they even went into the service.
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  #24  
Old 30 Apr 14, 10:55
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PSTD is real. I've seen it develop in police officers, and have minor symptoms of it myself.

Its a affirmation of the rule that for every action, there is a reaction.

If you subject your body to high degrees of stress and strain, at some point in the future you will have to pay for it-that is a fact.

The key problems with PSTD is ignorance by the subject of what he or she is going through, and self-medication.

Part of the problem experienced by both military personnel and police officers is the failure to anticipate reality, which is particularly present in the current generation. Hollywood and video games show violent acts to be quick, clear, short, purposeful, and choreographed. Reality is exactly the opposite.

There is also a pervasive expectation of 'it can't happen to me'. A specific example was a kid who came back from Iraq several years ago and ended up in a standoff with us that resulted in his death. I spoke with him before the incident and during it. He couldn't cope with killing a guy in Iraq. The kid had enlisted as an 11B, yet made it through to Iraq without once accepting that he might/would have to take a life.

I see this a great deal with new police officers for whom the sidearm and patrol rifle are just symbols. They simply do not accept that the day may come when they will have to bring them into play.

Another issue I've seen in the current generation of suicides is a lack of moral grounding. These people are trying to deal with terrible life issues with no belief system with which to sustain themselves. This ties in with a 'me centric' attitude. With no developed world view they have great difficulty in coming to terms with what they have seen and done.

And self-medication: we seldom see a sober suicide.

Another yet another factor in the suicides is that several I've seen are incidental to military service. You read through this person's journals and you realize they were on the fast track to a self-inflicted GSW since puberty. They just happened to have served in the military along the way.
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Old 30 Apr 14, 23:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
PSTD is real. I've seen it develop in police officers, and have minor symptoms of it myself.

Its a affirmation of the rule that for every action, there is a reaction.

If you subject your body to high degrees of stress and strain, at some point in the future you will have to pay for it-that is a fact.

The key problems with PSTD is ignorance by the subject of what he or she is going through, and self-medication.

Part of the problem experienced by both military personnel and police officers is the failure to anticipate reality, which is particularly present in the current generation. Hollywood and video games show violent acts to be quick, clear, short, purposeful, and choreographed. Reality is exactly the opposite.

There is also a pervasive expectation of 'it can't happen to me'. A specific example was a kid who came back from Iraq several years ago and ended up in a standoff with us that resulted in his death. I spoke with him before the incident and during it. He couldn't cope with killing a guy in Iraq. The kid had enlisted as an 11B, yet made it through to Iraq without once accepting that he might/would have to take a life.

I see this a great deal with new police officers for whom the sidearm and patrol rifle are just symbols. They simply do not accept that the day may come when they will have to bring them into play.

Another issue I've seen in the current generation of suicides is a lack of moral grounding. These people are trying to deal with terrible life issues with no belief system with which to sustain themselves. This ties in with a 'me centric' attitude. With no developed world view they have great difficulty in coming to terms with what they have seen and done.

And self-medication: we seldom see a sober suicide.

Another yet another factor in the suicides is that several I've seen are incidental to military service. You read through this person's journals and you realize they were on the fast track to a self-inflicted GSW since puberty. They just happened to have served in the military along the way.
No question mark about it being real mate,just how real are some of the claimants,all those Jocks: that are always on the lookout for the easy buck or make use of it as a defense after committing some atrocious crime? It seems that there is a good excuse for practically anything nowadays.PSTD ? If everyone that had seen or done sickening things in War tried to claim that,the queue would stretch around the World. lcm1
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Old 01 May 14, 21:24
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Old 02 May 14, 00:54
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Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
A good friend of mine once commented on PTSD.He felt a lot of those afflicted had issues before they were in any combat. I guess that follows what hackworth said about the bottle getting full. Some people had a bottle half full before they even went into the service.
While Col. Hackworth was an ass hole I have to agree with him here.
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Old 02 May 14, 17:28
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Since women make up a much smaller overall percentage of the military, and virtually none in combat arms, their higher ratio of PTSD still doesn't make sense to me.
Could it be that the Female Psyche's makeup is a factor? Women have lots of pyschological perks that men don't, like nurturing instincts for instance. OTOH, men have had quite literally an animal level of combat instincts bored into most of us....considering the history of the human race and how every single one of our cultures used to be very violent....principally male violence. So maybe men, on the whole, have some natural resistance to the sort of psychological shock that comes from military actions and military life....while women do not have that sort of multigenerational built-in resistance.

One might also note that women make up an extremely small part of Law Enforcement, a lower-key but still violent profession.....and IIRC women tend to have a higher turn-over rate, even though they're heavily in demand and some agencies practically coddle them.

I remember reading a study some years back, don't remember who had done it. But two key points of the study were that men, psychologically, make better infantry than women. Because men, on average, do not sustain the psychological trauma that women do in the direct and personal taking of human lives. OTOH, women had no such trouble in the same situations as fighter pilots, because they had no psychological issues with destroying distant targets or targets that were objects, even though people were in said objects. The study noted that it was something about the physical killing of another human when you're aware that you're killing another human on an animal rather than an intellectual level.
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  #29  
Old 02 May 14, 20:20
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I'd add that women and men function differently in terms of organizations and working in groups.

Men tend to follow the leader of the group. When there is a discussion about something men tend to talk over each other and interrupt. But, generally, when there is a leader and the other men respect that position they follow directions / orders without issue.

Women tend to be more democratic in their decision making. They will discuss a problem at length taking turns and making sure everyone gets a say in the decision. When faced with unilateral leadership they tend to be differential and any issues they have are internalized.
"She wouldn't listen to me..." "He didn't consider my feelings..."

This is one reason men tend to play team sports far more than women, particularly ones that require a team leader making decisions.

Look at a situation like this:

Four guys are at a restaurant. The bill comes. All four throw some cash on the tray sufficient to cover the bill and tip. Nobody particularly pays attention to who paid what so long as everybody contributed what the group thinks is sufficient.
When ordering, guys look over the menu and order something. There might be a question like "We gonna get an appetizer?" Only stuff that affects the group is discussed. Personal choices are not.

With four women the bill is parsed over for every penny. There is a discussion about who will pay for what and even how much to tip.
Women ordering ask each other "What are you getting?" That may start a round of discussion about changes in what others are getting or whether that is a good choice.
Everything is discussed.

There is a huge difference between how women think and men think. Feminists will poo- poo that and tell you that you are wrong. But, physiologically male and female brains are very differently structured so there is a difference.
That likely does have an impact on how the two sexes react to stress.
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  #30  
Old 02 May 14, 20:50
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Real Name: Mike Staggs
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Larue
Posts: 615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I'd add that women and men function differently in terms of organizations and working in groups.

Look at a situation like this:

Four guys are at a restaurant. The bill comes. All four throw some cash on the tray sufficient to cover the bill and tip. Nobody particularly pays attention to who paid what so long as everybody contributed what the group thinks is sufficient.
When ordering, guys look over the menu and order something. There might be a question like "We gonna get an appetizer?" Only stuff that affects the group is discussed. Personal choices are not.

With four women the bill is parsed over for every penny. There is a discussion about who will pay for what and even how much to tip.
Women ordering ask each other "What are you getting?" That may start a round of discussion about changes in what others are getting or whether that is a good choice.
Everything is discussed.
Brother how right you are!

We have a monthly family meal at different local restaurant and my sister and sister-in-law do exactly what you say.

It drives my insane, to the point I avoid these get to gathers.
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