HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion

Notices and Announcements

American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 19 Mar 14, 16:43
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 27,463
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FluffyBunnyFeet View Post
Again primacy affect, "when forms an initial belief from an initial source they are inclined to reinforce it, rather than question it.
You do realize this applies to you as well?

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 19 Mar 14, 17:24
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 16,652
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
[QUOTE=FluffyBunnyFeet;2774959]uhm? name a commander that never lost and I'll show you a guy that led one battle... Alexander despite his propaganda lost battles especially in India are they now bad commanders?QUOTE]

Louis N. Davout, Marshal of the Empire never lost a battle, and he definitely fought more than one and commanded alone at Auerstadt in 1806, Eckmuhl in 1809, Moghilev in 1812 and in the fighting in northwest Europe in 1813-1814, including his famous unyielding defense of Hamburg.

Wellington never lost a battle as a commander, and he fought in India, the Iberian peninsula from 1808-1814, and in Belgium in 1815.

Another British commander, Marlborough, never lost a battle either.

And if you believe that Alexander lost a battle, name it, please.

So, there you have at least three. Care to up the ante?

Now get off your high-horse and actually pay attention to the others here-you might actually learn something. And there are plenty of members who have admitted mistakes here. Perhaps when you've been here just a little longer, and also grow up a little, you might fit in well-though I doubt it as most of your postings are just piles of manure.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 19 Mar 14, 18:26
Cyberknight's Avatar
Cyberknight Cyberknight is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,196
Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
Custer was no battlefield master tactician. He made the same sort of blunders at Little Big Horn, as Chelmsford made about 4 or 5 days later at Isandlwana.

Things like underestimating the opposition, and splitting up his forces in enemy territory without sufficient fore-knowledge of the oppositions' deployment and intentions.
That those two events occurred so close together always intrigued me.
__________________
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 20 Mar 14, 02:36
Bdell's Avatar
Bdell Bdell is offline
Captain
United_States
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Adrian
Posts: 889
Bdell is on the path to success [1-99] Bdell is on the path to success [1-99] Bdell is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
he under estimated them just as you do now.
When you are outnumbered between 3 to 1 and 5 to 1, it doesn't do to underestimate anybody. I'm not underestimating the Indians but am not crediting them with military genius, either. Considering how bad Custer's tactics were it would have been surprising if the Indians DIDN'T win.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 20 Mar 14, 02:45
Bdell's Avatar
Bdell Bdell is offline
Captain
United_States
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Adrian
Posts: 889
Bdell is on the path to success [1-99] Bdell is on the path to success [1-99] Bdell is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
Custer's tactics hastened the disaster since, we now know, it was going to happen that afternoon in June anyway.
Not true at all. If he had kept his Regiment consolidated......as he should have. Kept his reserve ammunition with his main body.....as he should have. He had every opportunity to win a victory. Remember, history is replete with examples of small units of soldiers defeating masses of tribal warriors. The battle was not un-winable.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 20 Mar 14, 06:46
TacCovert4's Avatar
TacCovert4 TacCovert4 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Dan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Not Quite Dead Yet
Posts: 14,894
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdell View Post
Not true at all. If he had kept his Regiment consolidated......as he should have. Kept his reserve ammunition with his main body.....as he should have. He had every opportunity to win a victory. Remember, history is replete with examples of small units of soldiers defeating masses of tribal warriors. The battle was not un-winable.
Quite. He was trying to do what had been fairly common practice with gatherings of Indians. Set up blocking forces and then push through the village with an attack. The Indians would run rather than engage and be caught by the blocking forces.

He underestimated the competition. And he arrogantly and arbitrarily decided that they'd behave in exactly the same way that they always did, because they were afraid of direct confrontation.

He did have intel that this gathering was bigger than average. And yet he did not do anything to prepare his command for more than a skirmish and pursuit, because he believed that's all that would happen. Reno was meant to be the hammer, driving the indians into the Anvil, with Benteen in pursuit.

Nobody thought about what to do if the Hammer got mobbed.......and the Anvil got smashed.....

With the Gatlings, extra ammo, and not dividing his command so much, he could have taken on Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull's force in a field battle, which they might have initially offered, and crushed them. The Indians were raiders after all, not professional soldiers. They tended to quickly balk at casualties.

Instead he went for a repeat of previous successful attacks on small villages....
__________________
Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 20 Mar 14, 07:47
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 16,652
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Custer did demonstrate, however, that the central position was not always an advantage.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 20 Mar 14, 07:48
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 16,652
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
That those two events occurred so close together always intrigued me.
Except that Chelmsford was not present...

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 20 Mar 14, 09:47
Wooden Wonder's Avatar
Wooden Wonder Wooden Wonder is offline
Brigadier General
UK
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 2,326
Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100] Wooden Wonder has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Except that Chelmsford was not present...

Sincerely,
M
The 'synchronicity' of unconnected events, both commanders did however have commonalities in their personalities, which inclined them to similar action and error.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 20 Mar 14, 10:03
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 21,813
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
[QUOTE=Massena;2775084]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FluffyBunnyFeet View Post
uhm? name a commander that never lost and I'll show you a guy that led one battle... Alexander despite his propaganda lost battles especially in India are they now bad commanders?QUOTE]

Louis N. Davout, Marshal of the Empire never lost a battle, and he definitely fought more than one and commanded alone at Auerstadt in 1806, Eckmuhl in 1809, Moghilev in 1812 and in the fighting in northwest Europe in 1813-1814, including his famous unyielding defense of Hamburg.

Wellington never lost a battle as a commander, and he fought in India, the Iberian peninsula from 1808-1814, and in Belgium in 1815.

Another British commander, Marlborough, never lost a battle either.

And if you believe that Alexander lost a battle, name it, please.

So, there you have at least three. Care to up the ante?

Now get off your high-horse and actually pay attention to the others here-you might actually learn something. And there are plenty of members who have admitted mistakes here. Perhaps when you've been here just a little longer, and also grow up a little, you might fit in well-though I doubt it as most of your postings are just piles of manure.

Sincerely,
M

Didn't Thomas in the ACW make a zero loss record as well?
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #71  
Old 20 Mar 14, 10:18
III Corps's Avatar
III Corps III Corps is offline
Major
United_States
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bluegrass Country
Posts: 1,126
III Corps is on the path to success [1-99] III Corps is on the path to success [1-99] III Corps is on the path to success [1-99] III Corps is on the path to success [1-99] III Corps is on the path to success [1-99] III Corps is on the path to success [1-99] III Corps is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdell View Post
...Not true at all...
We can agree to disagree. You look at things which could have happened. I look at what actually occurred.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 20 Mar 14, 11:05
Bdell's Avatar
Bdell Bdell is offline
Captain
United_States
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Adrian
Posts: 889
Bdell is on the path to success [1-99] Bdell is on the path to success [1-99] Bdell is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
We can agree to disagree. You look at things which could have happened. I look at what actually occurred.
I don't know what you're talking about. The point of the thread is Custer's ability as an independent commander, and what I am pointing out is not something that didn't happen , but what SHOULDN'T have happened.
The one over-riding fact is that Custer was confronted by a massive collection of Indians. How he dealt with that fact, determined how that battle was to be fought. However you try to cut it, Custer had a great deal of information and could have formulated a winning strategy. But he refused to face the reality of his situation, and instead tried to use such tactics as had been used on other occasions, which is why I say he did not possess good deductive reasoning skills.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 20 Mar 14, 12:33
TacCovert4's Avatar
TacCovert4 TacCovert4 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Dan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Not Quite Dead Yet
Posts: 14,894
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Custer did demonstrate, however, that the central position was not always an advantage.

Sincerely,
M
Id argue that since he split his forces up and they became separated..... that the Sioux had the central position.
__________________
Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 20 Mar 14, 13:02
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 16,652
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdell View Post
I don't know what you're talking about. The point of the thread is Custer's ability as an independent commander, and what I am pointing out is not something that didn't happen , but what SHOULDN'T have happened.
The one over-riding fact is that Custer was confronted by a massive collection of Indians. How he dealt with that fact, determined how that battle was to be fought. However you try to cut it, Custer had a great deal of information and could have formulated a winning strategy. But he refused to face the reality of his situation, and instead tried to use such tactics as had been used on other occasions, which is why I say he did not possess good deductive reasoning skills.
Same difference. III Corps is correct.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 20 Mar 14, 13:03
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 16,652
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Id argue that since he split his forces up and they became separated..... that the Sioux had the central position.
Interesting point of view, since the Indians had no need of it because of overwhelming numbers. The strategy of the central position is used when outnumbered, as Napoleon did in Italy in 1796 and in Belgium in 1815.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:16.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.