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  #1  
Old 05 Jul 13, 07:09
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How was the Union destroyed by secession?

I am starting this thread so as not to interfere with the other topic.


D1J1 said this from the other thread.

Quote:
They chose to ignore that option and attempted to destroy the Union.
The Union was still there after secession but the Union was smaller but not destroyed.
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  #2  
Old 05 Jul 13, 07:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B7B Southern View Post
I am starting this thread so as not to interfere with the other topic.


D1J1 said this from the other thread.



The Union was still there after secession but the Union was smaller but not destroyed.
And the difference is?

As with declaring independence it was everyone or no one. If secession was allowed or the Confederacy won, the principle of Union would be destroyed forever. That's one of the reasons that the US flag was not changed during the war and the number of stars remained the same.

Twice before secession was proposed: once in New England during the War of 1812 which fizzled out; again during Jackson's tenure as president by South Carolina. He told them to knock it off or he'd lead an army himself to go to South Carolina and have them submit by force.

Once again, it's a matter of all or nothing.

Interesting that you bring this up, Marshall. Are you proposing that the Confederacy winning and becoming independent would have been a good thing?

Sincerely,
M
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Old 05 Jul 13, 07:25
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It would have been ruinous in one major way - successful secession (suffering succotash?) would have shown that any state or body of states had the right to leave any time they damn well pleased. This would have likely lead to a fragmentation of the Union over time, leaving the United States as a collection of smaller countries, similar to Europe. Sen. Waitman Willey, during the Richmond Conventions, alluded to as much.

How much would our world history have been changed without a large, powerful United States? It's an interesting question to think about.
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Old 05 Jul 13, 07:41
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[QUOTE=Massena;2583687]And the difference is?

As with declaring independence it was everyone or no one. If secession was allowed or the Confederacy won, the principle of Union would be destroyed forever. That's one of the reasons that the US flag was not changed during the war and the number of stars remained the same.

Twice before secession was proposed: once in New England during the War of 1812 which fizzled out; again during Jackson's tenure as president by South Carolina. He told them to knock it off or he'd lead an army himself to go to South Carolina and have them submit by force.

Once again, it's a matter of all or nothing.

Quote:
Interesting that you bring this up, Marshall. Are you proposing that the Confederacy winning and becoming independent would have been a good thing?

Sincerely,
M
No one knows how secession would work. It just would be better to say
the size of the Union decreased but not destroyed!
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Old 05 Jul 13, 09:03
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Had the Union split, it would have led to more wars and more problems.

Would the South have been contented with just its 13 states?

Would they themselves not ended up going to war with one another?

If they didn’t like the Confederacy, were they free to leave or would they have been forced to stay?

Who would have control of the remaining territories? You might argue that the Territories could make that decision, but then you would have Bloody Kansas in every territory as people rushed out west to sway the election for the North or South.

How would World War II turned out?

Who would have gotten the first nuclear weapon? Russia?
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Old 05 Jul 13, 09:06
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Originally Posted by Anthrax View Post
Had the Union split, it would have led to more wars and more problems.

Would the South have been contented with just its 13 states?

Would they themselves not ended up going to war with one another?

If they didn’t like the Confederacy, were they free to leave or would they have been forced to stay?

Who would have control of the remaining territories? You might argue that the Territories could make that decision, but then you would have Bloody Kansas in every territory as people rushed out west to sway the election for the North or South.

How would World War II turned out?

Who would have gotten the first nuclear weapon? Russia?

Good questions but none I can answer.
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Old 05 Jul 13, 11:18
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What the separation would have done was changed the name Union to
National States of America opposite Confederate States of America.
That would work pretty good because it was not a union any longer!
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Old 05 Jul 13, 12:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B7B Southern View Post
What the separation would have done was changed the name Union to
National States of America opposite Confederate States of America.
That would work pretty good because it was not a union any longer!
And there you have answered your own question.
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Old 05 Jul 13, 12:47
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And there you have answered your own question.
I luck out sometimes!
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Old 05 Jul 13, 22:01
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I suppose not being in the union would destroy the union
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Old 06 Jul 13, 05:28
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Secession was attempted, but it did not succeed. The Union survived.

Had secession succeeded, the Union as it was known would have been destroyed.

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Old 06 Jul 13, 23:55
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That is something many pro-Union supporters refuse to concede.

Was the South seeking to OVERTHROW the government in DC? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Let's say if the South won the war, would she have demanded Lincoln to resign and his Cabinet purged out, thus appointing the southerners to high level positions? Somehow I doubt this.

Like it or not, the South never intended to overthrow the government in DC, she merely wanted the right to secede from the Union. In short, the South was asking for a divorce and the Union refused to let her do that.

But they are right about one thing....had the South won the war, it would have destroyed the Union as they KNOW it. The new, defeated Union would emerge as a smaller nation, but with its Constitution intact and a democratically elected government.

Dan
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Old 07 Jul 13, 06:10
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Well, that was kind of the point of the whole thing - the war was to preserve the Union as it was known. No sitting president would want to be known as the one who let such a huge chunk of his own territory slip away like that, so what could Lincoln have done?
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Old 07 Jul 13, 06:54
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Like it or not, the South never intended to overthrow the government in DC, she merely wanted the right to secede from the Union. In short, the South was asking for a divorce and the Union refused to let her do that.
So!? What Unionist here ever said they did want to overthrow the government?! Ridiculous beyond belief. This requires a stretch of imagination that would break any known rubber band in a nanosecond!

The question is why did they want this alleged "right" to secede Dan? Only one reason of course, to maintain slavery, period.

I would note that secession was never discussed in any of the debates at the Constitutional convention. Had it been included the concept would certainly have enabled the Federalists to gain an easier adoption of the document.

When New York proposed a temporary adoption, say 5-7 years, with the right to withdraw from the Union after that time, it was rejected.

Here is what James Madison had to say on the matter in a 1788 letter to Alexander Hamilton who was willing to support the New York idea to get her to ratify:

MY DEAR SIR: Yours of yesterday is this instant at hand, and I have but a few minutes to answer it. I am sorry that your situation obliges you to listen to propositions of the nature you describe. My opinion is that a reservation of a right to withdraw, if amendments be not decided on under the form of the Constitution within a certain time, is a conditional ratification: that it does not make New-York a member of the new Union, and consequently that she should not be received on that plan. Compacts must be reciprocal; this principle would not in such case be preserved. The Constitution requires an adoption in toto and FOREVER. It has been so adopted by the other States. An adoption for a limited time would be as defective as an adoption of some of the articles only. In short, any condition whatever must vitiate the ratification. What the new Congress, by virtue of the power to admit new States, may be able and disposed to do in such a case, I do not inquire, and I suppose that is not the material point at present. I have not a moment to add more than my fervent wishes for your success and happiness. The idea of reserving the right to withdraw was started at Richmond, and considered as a conditional ratification, which was itself abandoned -- worse than rejection.
Yours, JAMES MADISON.



In toto and forever is the way it was adopted. There is no right to secede considered by the authors of the document.


Regards,
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Old 07 Jul 13, 07:02
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Dennis, Thomas Jefferson said the the way the 2 sections were not getting
along with each other they would be better off separating. That was in 1825
in his secret letter.
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