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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #1  
Old 24 Jun 13, 00:34
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US Army, Cold War

First-time poster here.

I'm noodling about some ideas from the '80s, some old wargames that I had.

Can someone point me to information on what the US planned to send to Norway or other parts in northern Europe (not the heavy divisions in REFORGER).

I saw a tantalizing bit that the 9th ID's job was to go to UK and then to Denmark or Norway, was that in addition to the new-raised 10th Mountain Division, or before that?

Which leads me to: in the 1989 orbats that I've seen, the 9th ID(L) has 4 combined-arms battalions. I know what one game thought those OBs were, has anyone got something more factual?
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  #2  
Old 24 Jun 13, 00:45
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10th and 11th SF Groups had a capstone in northern europe.
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  #3  
Old 24 Jun 13, 01:58
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norway reinforcement

hello ,
i saw your post ..... not sure of how much help my info might be but here we go.

i know that in the mid to late 1980's the 9th infantry divison was a high -technology test bed division ..... basically they were trying out the technology (ie equipment) and tactics of what would become the new light divisions.

the 9th might have been designated for a norway reinforcement ...but i know the 2nd marine division was oriented toward europe and i believe at least a marine amphibious brigade from the division was possibly assigned to norway.

also the british had one of their brigades - probably 3rd rm commando bde and the canadians had what was called a CAST brigade (canadian air-sea transportable) designated for norway and im sure that the then NATO ACE Mobile Force was assigned to a norway role.

if i find any more info i will post it.
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Old 24 Jun 13, 11:26
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Allow me to expand.

I do know that NATO was slotted to reinforce Norway with a Canadian brigade, ACE force, UK Commando brigade, and US Marine brigade.

Later in the '80s, the 10th Mountain Division was believed to be allocated to Norway, and/or the 6th Light Division (unless it was held in Alaska), or its predecessor 172nd Infantry Brigade.

Beyond these formations, was there a NATO corps HQ and assets? Who was going to command all of these forces? The natural choice would seem to be the Norwegian Army, no?
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  #5  
Old 24 Jun 13, 11:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Hanna View Post
Beyond these formations, was there a NATO corps HQ and assets? Who was going to command all of these forces? The natural choice would seem to be the Norwegian Army, no?
Not likely.
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  #6  
Old 24 Jun 13, 21:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Not likely.
Yeah, I didn't think so, either. Congress has never been happy with Americans under foreign command. If not the Norwegians, the US is committing a division-plus, any other NATO members a brigade or less, so a US corps command seems the logical solution. BUT, then shouldn't there have been another HQ somewhere? Why can't I find it?

I know, I know, I'm expecting logic and planning from upper echelons.
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  #7  
Old 24 Jun 13, 21:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Hanna View Post
Yeah, I didn't think so, either. Congress has never been happy with Americans under foreign command. If not the Norwegians, the US is committing a division-plus, any other NATO members a brigade or less, so a US corps command seems the logical solution. BUT, then shouldn't there have been another HQ somewhere? Why can't I find it?

I know, I know, I'm expecting logic and planning from upper echelons.
I was in a cold weather unit with a capstone for that AO. We trained for it with exercises called Flintlock. Our HQ was based in the UK. Search for Flintlock and you may find the answer.
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My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

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"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
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  #8  
Old 24 Jun 13, 21:27
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Thanks, but no luck so far.
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Old 25 Jun 13, 08:56
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During the REFORGERS I was part of Norway was considered a NATO, not a US, responsibility. There's wasn't much interest at all. The Brits had it, and the assumptions I always heard was that between them and the terrain nothing would happen of significance up there before the Central battlefield was resolved one way or another.

Be careful about 9th ID TO&Es for the 80s; for a good portion of that decade it served as a testbed for a lot of innovations, some pretty fleeting.
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Old 25 Jun 13, 11:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Hanna View Post
Thanks, but no luck so far.
Damn.... oh well it has been awhile. I'm still in touch with some of the old boys... I'll try to find out for you. So... give me your exact questions.
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My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
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Old 25 Jun 13, 19:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Hanna View Post

Which leads me to: in the 1989 orbats that I've seen, the 9th ID(L) has 4 combined-arms battalions. I know what one game thought those OBs were, has anyone got something more factual?
Not knowing which game or what OBs they provided. I tend to think the link below is about as factual as you can get on the 9ID (MTZ), but thats just my opinion though.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a370233.pdf
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Old 26 Jun 13, 13:43
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Not knowing which game or what OBs they provided. I tend to think the link below is about as factual as you can get on the 9ID (MTZ), but thats just my opinion though.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a370233.pdf
Thanks for that, at 354 pages, it will take a while to digest. I didn't remember Shalikashvili commanded the division!
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  #13  
Old 26 Jun 13, 13:54
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Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Damn.... oh well it has been awhile. I'm still in touch with some of the old boys... I'll try to find out for you. So... give me your exact questions.
The big question is: who would have been in command of the theater (or sub-theater) on the ground in Norway? I've read that there was supposed to be brigades from Canada, UK and the US committed, plus 1 or more American light divisions (6th and/or 10th, possibly 29th). That's on top of the 12 Norwegian brigades already there. (There's a note that the Norwegians planned to form divisions from their brigades.)

Surely all of that rates at least a corps HQ and support units from somewhere?
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Old 26 Jun 13, 23:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Hanna View Post
The big question is: who would have been in command of the theater (or sub-theater) on the ground in Norway? I've read that there was supposed to be brigades from Canada, UK and the US committed, plus 1 or more American light divisions (6th and/or 10th, possibly 29th). That's on top of the 12 Norwegian brigades already there. (There's a note that the Norwegians planned to form divisions from their brigades.)

Surely all of that rates at least a corps HQ and support units from somewhere?
Wouldn't Norway fall under AFNORTH, and if I remember right a British General would have been in command. As far as the intermediate steps between AFNorth and the divisions/brigades. I 'll see what I can find in my archives. On a side note, I think the ACE Mobile Force also had some kind of responsibility to Norway if war had broken out.
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Old 27 Jun 13, 00:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Hanna View Post
The big question is: who would have been in command of the theater (or sub-theater) on the ground in Norway? I've read that there was supposed to be brigades from Canada, UK and the US committed, plus 1 or more American light divisions (6th and/or 10th, possibly 29th). That's on top of the 12 Norwegian brigades already there. (There's a note that the Norwegians planned to form divisions from their brigades.)

Surely all of that rates at least a corps HQ and support units from somewhere?
Okay, give me a few days... I'm in contact with our old S-2 and he should know those details.
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My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
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