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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #46  
Old 17 Jun 13, 17:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
That the design began out of the state of the art as the Germans had it under the Versailles limitations, i.e the so-called Landwirtschaftlicher Schlepper A of 1932 ("agricultural tractor", as mentioned). That limitation was not a technical one, but a political one.
Not much of an answer.
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  #47  
Old 17 Jun 13, 17:30
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Not much of an answer.
You are right. It is a great answer.
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  #48  
Old 17 Jun 13, 22:40
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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
You are right. It is a great answer.
Huh?
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  #49  
Old 17 Jun 13, 23:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The US initially massively expanded production starting in 1939. Tanks remained a secondary issue at that point to naval construction. Quite obviously for the US, not their future allies, that naval construction was taking precidence.
Tanks at that point were being built primarily by locomotive firms like Baldwin. These had more experiance with rivetted construction and shipyards were taking the lion's share of the welding capacity. It follows that in the early war period tanks could be rivetted.
Aside from that, the US was also building at that point for the army mainly for training not operational use. Again, rivetted tanks make no difference if they are not expected to be sent into action.
At that same time (1939) the Soviets were just switching to welding. Their previous model tanks were rivetted.
In the 1938 - 1941 period prior to the US getting into the war shipyards across the US were vastly expanded. New drydocks installed, massive new shops ashore for repair and manufacture were being put in place. The US up to Pearl Harbor focused funding primarily on building infrastructure not actual equipment.
That's all fine, but it doesn't explain why such a world leader in welding didn't employ this technology in tank construction. What you're writing here is pure conjecture. The fact welding was needed elsewhere does not necessarily entail the fact that tank designers were consciously making riveted designs unless evidence of such governmental decrees is produced. The US did not have a command-administrative economy and it could neither force its independent companies to surrender all their welders to shipyards nor could it force its tank designers to work only on riveted designs. Even (and especially!) in the USSR experimentation on new technologically more complex designs was encouraged, therefore it looks incredibly strange that US designers could put technological blinders on their eyes on the orders of their government.

Unless they simply did not consider welding their tanks - but you can't accept this idea, can't you?
Quote:
You want to quibble over some perceived slight. The US didn't build tanks using rivets much past 1940 as the workforce and equipment caught up with production.

http://weldingdesign.com/archive/welding-and-wwii
Slight? I was correcting your remark:

Quote:
The US and Germany were the leaders in using welding to assemble their tanks.
Which is clearly false, as evidenced by the huge rivets on both US and German tanks designed and built in 1940-1941 - and by the welded T-34.

Must be a pain to give these Evil Commies their due, eh?
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  #50  
Old 18 Jun 13, 03:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
Must be a pain to give these Evil Commies their due, eh?
They certainly made the best tank at the beginning of the war. Just did not use it as effectively as they could have.
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  #51  
Old 18 Jun 13, 04:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Not much of an answer.
I can only guess that you did not understand it because you forgot what you surely knew once, i.e. that under the Versailles Treaty the Germans were forbidden armored fighting vehicles.

So they had to start from scratch and they could not come up, as their first post-WWI prototype, with a land cruiser in the size of the British Independent, the Italian Fiat 2000, the Soviet T-28 or T-35, or the US International. Even if they had, hypothetically, wanted such a big tank, they had the disarmament commissions and foreign military attachés breathing down their necks. It would have been a no-no - that is, for as long as they still feigned compliance with Versailles.

So they had to start with something that could credibly be described as... an agricultural tractor, having tracks only because it had to move across ploughed fields for farming purposes.

Once they had that working, as an actually moving set of tracks and engine, they went form there - to the Pz I, which, understandably, was not much larger than the LaS.

Indeed, the first large German tank after WWI was the Neubaufahrzeug, which, as you'll remember, wasn't designed until 1933. By that time, they cared much less about the Versailles limitations.

Now I'm sure you understood. If you still do not, then it's time you dust off your books, rather than ask me again.
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  #52  
Old 18 Jun 13, 10:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
I can only guess that you did not understand it because you forgot what you surely knew once, i.e. that under the Versailles Treaty the Germans were forbidden armored fighting vehicles.
I didn't mean to be a pain in the butt, your wording was making me think you believed it to be a farming tractor converted. Silly I know, but that was how I read it. Apologies for my error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
So they had to start with something that could credibly be described as... an agricultural tractor, having tracks only because it had to move across ploughed fields for farming purposes.
For some reason it only just dawned on me how odd it would be to use a tracked vehicle for farming, even though this was their "name" for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Indeed, the first large German tank after WWI was the Neubaufahrzeug, which, as you'll remember, wasn't designed until 1933. By that time, they cared much less about the Versailles limitations.
I would have pointed out the Grosstraktor and Leichttraktor as Germany's first, no? (Love the lines of the Leichttraktor...wouldn't mind making a model of that if someone has produced such an animal.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Now I'm sure you understood. If you still do not, then it's time you dust off your books, rather than ask me again.
No dust on the relevant books as Panzertruppen I is my current read.
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  #53  
Old 18 Jun 13, 14:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
They certainly made the best tank at the beginning of the war. Just did not use it as effectively as they could have.
No argument about this, of course.
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  #54  
Old 18 Jun 13, 15:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
That is incorrect. The Sherman only appeared taller because it was narrower in the front. (Good thing I saved these images.)
Are you sure those are in scale?
They make the Panther look taller than a Tiger.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Actually I am seeing that there are wholes in the argument that you are throwing at T.A. and that he makes good points (see below) so I am simply trying to ask questions and make assumptions. You assume so why can't I?
Need you ask?
I was just thinking about taking him off ignore, glad I saw this first!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Soviets already used welding since years on the BT series and T-26 tanks.



Um....

I can't have been the only guy who looked at this and noticed that the Emperor has no Clothes... or rather, the wrong sort.
These are both T-26, and are covered with rivets and bolt-heads.
Nice job.
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  #55  
Old 18 Jun 13, 17:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Are you sure those are in scale?
They make the Panther look taller than a Tiger.
Yes; they are to scale. I also see I forgot to add a photo.
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File Type: jpg height0001.jpg (33.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg 3942393118_4fa490224c.jpg (80.0 KB, 11 views)
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  #56  
Old 18 Jun 13, 17:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post

I can't have been the only guy who looked at this and noticed that the Emperor has no Clothes... or rather, the wrong sort.
These are both T-26, and are covered with rivets and bolt-heads.
Nice job.

I think the inference was that there was welding used on those tanks in one degree or another and not that they were fully welded.
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  #57  
Old 18 Jun 13, 18:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
Yes; they are to scale. I also see I forgot to add a photo.
Nice pics there.
Still, I think one would have to put the Sherman next to a Pz IV and a T-34, according to it's vehicle/weight class. Kinda like broderickwells said. Thay may change the impression....
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  #58  
Old 18 Jun 13, 21:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
That's all fine, but it doesn't explain why such a world leader in welding didn't employ this technology in tank construction. What you're writing here is pure conjecture. The fact welding was needed elsewhere does not necessarily entail the fact that tank designers were consciously making riveted designs unless evidence of such governmental decrees is produced. The US did not have a command-administrative economy and it could neither force its independent companies to surrender all their welders to shipyards nor could it force its tank designers to work only on riveted designs. Even (and especially!) in the USSR experimentation on new technologically more complex designs was encouraged, therefore it looks incredibly strange that US designers could put technological blinders on their eyes on the orders of their government.

Unless they simply did not consider welding their tanks - but you can't accept this idea, can't you?


Slight? I was correcting your remark:



Which is clearly false, as evidenced by the huge rivets on both US and German tanks designed and built in 1940-1941 - and by the welded T-34.

Must be a pain to give these Evil Commies their due, eh?
You might want to go back to 1929 with the Christie tanks and then the partially welded T1E4. Clearly the US considered welding but most likely since production remained in the 10's or less of each vehicle there was little general interest either way. The massive expansion of production starting about 1939 is clearly an explaination why rivetting was reverted to for the initial production of vehicles and ended shortly thereafter as production of welding equipment and training of welders caught up.
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  #59  
Old 18 Jun 13, 22:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
You might want to go back to 1929 with the Christie tanks and then the partially welded T1E4. Clearly the US considered welding but most likely since production remained in the 10's or less of each vehicle there was little general interest either way. The massive expansion of production starting about 1939 is clearly an explaination why rivetting was reverted to for the initial production of vehicles and ended shortly thereafter as production of welding equipment and training of welders caught up.
Which means that your statement about the "US lead in tank welding" was not true. Thank you for correcting it yourself.
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Old 18 Jun 13, 22:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utgardloki View Post
Nice pics there.
Still, I think one would have to put the Sherman next to a Pz IV and a T-34, according to it's vehicle/weight class. Kinda like broderickwells said. Thay may change the impression....

Okay. They don't look that much different to ME. For comparison check the Mark IV with the Mark VI.
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