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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #61  
Old 23 Apr 13, 10:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
The picture, sent in anonymously, has import because it was Garrison's attorney that told the FBI that Ferrie was involved in the assassination and that he saw a photo of Ferrie and Oswald together in Ferries home from when they were in the CAP together. I provided the FBI transcript.

This was all denied and the FBI dropped it. Now, decades later we find that they were in the CAP together and there is a photo. This gives credence to the original testimony about Ferries involvement in the Assassination.

This is good evidence that would have weight in any investigation. Unfortunately, the deaths of witnesses hampered Garrison's ability to nail things down.
Garrison had hold of something thats for sure. There were people up to something involving Oswald, Cuba and the intellignce community in New Orleans. That Clay Shaw was an operative of the CIa despite his denials, something that was later admitted under oath by Richard Helms in the late 70's proving Shaw committed perjury in 69. He was onto something thats for sure. But to take it all the way to a conclusion I'm not so sure about that. To prove who the shooters were if mutliple shooters was the case, to prove who actually sanctioned a hit? Im not sure he could have done that. He was fighting a gorilla on that one. I think proving things were covered up
(which I think is independent of the hit itself) is much more provable and may well indeed come put properly one day. Im not sure about proving if or who other shooters were. I think that boat has sailed but you never know. The KGB in Mexico City must have been on to Oswald ( or his impostors) and who was backing him and who were going around seemingly trying to paint them as assassins and conspirators with Oswald.Perhaps they have files that could one day shed some more light. For example who that guy was pretending to be Oswald in Mexico city. If he could be ID'd that would be interesting ... Yeltisn is supposed to have given Clinton something to do with all this as some goodwill post cold war gesture but I've never heard any details about that...

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  #62  
Old 23 Apr 13, 12:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Garrison had hold of something thats for sure. There were people up to something involving Oswald, Cuba and the intellignce community in New Orleans. That Clay Shaw was an operative of the CIa despite his denials, something that was later admitted under oath by Richard Helms in the late 70's proving Shaw committed perjury in 69. He was onto something thats for sure. But to take it all the way to a conclusion I'm not so sure about that. To prove who the shooters were if mutliple shooters was the case, to prove who actually sanctioned a hit? Im not sure he could have done that. He was fighting a gorilla on that one. I think proving things were covered up
(which I think is independent of the hit itself) is much more provable and may well indeed come put properly one day. Im not sure about proving if or who other shooters were. I think that boat has sailed but you never know. The KGB in Mexico City must have been on to Oswald ( or his impostors) and who was backing him and who were going around seemingly trying to paint them as assassins and conspirators with Oswald.Perhaps they have files that could one day shed some more light. For example who that guy was pretending to be Oswald in Mexico city. If he could be ID'd that would be interesting ... Yeltisn is supposed to have given Clinton something to do with all this as some goodwill post cold war gesture but I've never heard any details about that...

The case for conspiracy is very strong, on several levels. the case for the Warren Commission has collapsed. That was made clear by the Congressional investigations in the 70's. Yet, a person has to do a fair amount of research to find the information. The status quo does not want to be disturbed and people like Oliver Stone are attacked by the status quo in print not because the ideas they present, but because they are exposing the myths that the status quo perpetuates. The probable elements of the conspiracy are there to be seen, but like you said, the details may never be known at this point.

Have you seen Robert Harris's work on the theory that there was a shooter, or shooters in the Daltex building?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE
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  #63  
Old 23 Apr 13, 12:13
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Maybe its just me...
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  #64  
Old 23 Apr 13, 16:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
I posted the source documents.
I take responsibility for what I post, how about you? I'll ask again since I too believe in the possibility of a conspiracy and want to know whether you are at all credible or not. Why does the "source document" say 1951 and you are now telling us it is 1955?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
I don't think we are discussing the biblical knowing.
I am not talking about a sexual relationship either. I think it is possible for Ferrie to be instructing to a group of people and not converse with all of them individually or remember their names. I've worked with a number of people at my job, some of whom I have even conversed with, that I could not tell you the names of. Eight years from now I'm sure I will forget more than just their names. In other words, Oswald probably knew Ferrie as an authority figure but Ferrie might not have known Oswald.
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  #65  
Old 23 Apr 13, 17:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post


Maybe its just me...
It could just be , it could just be...

On the Russian files. the only reference I can find on it is this from 1999. Nothing further seems to have come of it if there was anything to come of it. It seems that they were given to the government to then be translated but nothing further. Least they're consistent...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ne99/jfk20.htm

Tell a lie . Found 'em...

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/Fre.../OswaldKGB.pdf

They have an example of a hand written letter by LHO. Quite childish in style... The lot is unsuprisingly unremarkable but interesting nonetheless... Condolence letters to Jackie Kennedy and members of the administration...
but it does include this:

Quote:
The American press has disseminated various slanderous fabrications regarding some
Soviet and Cuban “connections” of Lee Harvey Oswald, who was charged by the U.S. authorities
with the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy and who was then himself killed under
mysterous circumstances. In addition, some organs of the American press are attempting to
support their insinuations by referring to the fact that Oswald lived in the Soviet Union from
October 1959 through June 1962.
The Ministry of Foreign mairs of the USSR and the KGB of the Council of Ministers of
the USSR have prepared a statement for the Soviet press to debunk these allegations by the
American media. The thrust of the draft statement is that the murder of Oswald himself reveals
now even more clearly the identity of the groups who are behind President Kennedy’s
assassination and who are obviously trying to cover up their tracks. The question of whether it is
advisable to publish such a statement requires special consideration, the final decision being
contingent on how the investigation of the circumstances surrounding Kennedy’s assassination
turns out.If the U.S. authorities request the Soviet embassy in Washingon for information
concerning Oswald’s stay in the Soviet Union, they could be provided with a relevant report on
this matter.

Last edited by copenhagen; 23 Apr 13 at 17:55..
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  #66  
Old 23 Apr 13, 20:01
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I came across this blog: oswald-is-guilty.blogspot.com. I don't know what to make of it -first I thought the author was serious, now I think it is just a big joke: ie the author is being ironic and sarcastic.

David Von Pein is the author


http://oswald-is-guilty.blogspot.com/
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  #67  
Old 23 Apr 13, 21:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I take responsibility for what I post, how about you? I'll ask again since I too believe in the possibility of a conspiracy and want to know whether you are at all credible or not. Why does the "source document" say 1951 and you are now telling us it is 1955?



I am not talking about a sexual relationship either. I think it is possible for Ferrie to be instructing to a group of people and not converse with all of them individually or remember their names. I've worked with a number of people at my job, some of whom I have even conversed with, that I could not tell you the names of. Eight years from now I'm sure I will forget more than just their names. In other words, Oswald probably knew Ferrie as an authority figure but Ferrie might not have known Oswald.
So it was an incredible coincidence that Martin testfied-out of the blue-that he saw a photo with oswald and Ferrie together in the CAP at Ferrie's house. And after Ferrie's denials, long after his death and when it would have been helpful...surprise! a photo emerges. This gives credence to the rest of Martin's story that Ferrie and Oswald were involved in the assassination. Did you read the document?

I'm not sure why you are oddly hung up because I mistakenly hit a '1' instead of a '5'. There is no source that says 1951...you haven't even read them.

Here's one, since you don't have a search engine, it's pbs, you'll love that.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...se/ferrie.html
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Last edited by unclefred; 23 Apr 13 at 21:17..
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  #68  
Old 23 Apr 13, 23:33
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I would like to start out by saying that I have been reading about the assassination since the 1960's and have never believed the WCR. Over the many years many of the theories and "evidence" that conspiracy theories were based on have been disproved and slipped away. I hang on to a number of items of physical evidence and holes in the case of the WCR that many say cement the lone shooter theory. The Zapruder film shows me a frontal shot to the head. The shooting was unrepeatable by WC marksmen and they attempted an easier shoot. The actions of LHO before and after the shooting are not those of an assassin (would you leave your revolver at home on the day you planned to murder the president?) To those unfamiliar with the TSBD layout a person going down the stairs must "visit" each floor, the stairwell is not continuous. The men on the 5th floor who heard the assassin above them never saw or heard LHO descending through their floor. One of the cartridges ejected from the rifle show a mark which clearly indicates it hung up upon extraction and was dented. The firing time with this gun would thus be increased by a guman recycling this spent cartridge. I have owned this gun and still own the scope; the possibilities of it (a scope designed for .22lr's) functioning for a gun of this caliber are remote. The number of witnesses reporting activity on the grassy knoll, witnesses testifying to the WC of occurences other than what the gov't wants the world to believe.
There is much more but I think it important to not be sidetracked with conjecture and half baked theories with little or no substance. This only takes us away from finding the real truth. One thing a conspiracy relies on is the cloud of misinformation that will follow something like this and they will, if working correctly, add to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
The picture, sent in anonymously, has import because it was Garrison's investigator that told the FBI that Ferrie was involved in the assassination and that he saw a photo of Ferrie and Oswald together in Ferries home from when they were in the CAP together.
Unfortuantely an investigator telling Garrison anything has little meaning and contributes nothing toward an investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
This was all denied by Ferrie and the FBI dropped it. Now, decades later we find that they were in the CAP together and there is a photo, (with an Oswald that is obviously not 12 yo ). This gives credence to the original testimony about Ferries involvement in the Assassination.
Jumping to conclusions as you are doing here does nothing for this discussion. That they were in the CAP together does not indicate conspiring to assassinate JFK. I'm glad you can tell how old he is in the photo so we don't have to believe the photo is from 1951. You're sure now...right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
This is good evidence that would have weight in any investigation.
I'm hoping you aren't a judge or lawyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
Also, secretly taped admissions by Mobster Carlos Marcello revealing “Yeah, I had the son of a bitch killed. I’m glad I did. I’m sorry I couldn’t have done it myself!”. Also naming Ferrie, who was Marcello's pilot and investigator, introduced him to Oswald and that they were involved in the plot. hE also disclosed that he had set up Ruby in the bar business. These tapes were made in 1985, I believe, and kept secret by the FBI.
Do you think there is a possibility that a mob boss (unimpeachable witness, right) might lie to take credit for one of the most infamous murders of the 20th century. I guess we should also believe that the best hitman Carlos Marcello could come up with would be LHO, or was he the fall guy in a murder plot of proportions never seen in the mob before.

Again, I think it important to concentrate on provable, credible information/theories.
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Old 24 Apr 13, 00:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
The status quo does not want to be disturbed and people like Oliver Stone are attacked by the status quo in print not because the ideas they present, but because they are exposing the myths that the status quo perpetuates.
It has always amazed me that Oliver Stone was attacked for his work in JFK. He took a book and made it in to a movie. From Hollywood. He didn't make a documentary and he very creatively used an exchange of color and black and white, if memory serves me to show what was known vs. what what theory. He is attacked as if he put this in a format where he expected the world to accept it all as he showed. Much of what was in the movie had been written up by conspiracy theorists for decades but the head in the sand public had no idea what had happened in 1963 and it seemed like many of those that were alive didn't care. It seems to be a repeat of what happened to many of the original conspiracy theorists of the '60's and '70's; someone is out there making sure their opinion is belittle and their names equated with "conspircay nuts." I wonder who can do that sort of thing?
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Old 24 Apr 13, 04:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
It has always amazed me that Oliver Stone was attacked for his work in JFK. He took a book and made it in to a movie. From Hollywood. He didn't make a documentary and he very creatively used an exchange of color and black and white, if memory serves me to show what was known vs. what what theory. He is attacked as if he put this in a format where he expected the world to accept it all as he showed. Much of what was in the movie had been written up by conspiracy theorists for decades but the head in the sand public had no idea what had happened in 1963 and it seemed like many of those that were alive didn't care. It seems to be a repeat of what happened to many of the original conspiracy theorists of the '60's and '70's; someone is out there making sure their opinion is belittle and their names equated with "conspircay nuts." I wonder who can do that sort of thing?
The problem was people viewed it as supposedly factual rather than speculative . The biggest one being the Mr X scene with Donald Sutherland where a lot of the information in it is and out and out fictional. It tends to colour the rest of it...



This character was based on a Colonel Fletcher Prouty who had nothing to do with security for the president, no trained knowledge of close protection, the army intelligence were not asked to stand down. Thats why he gets clobbered for that and then the other stuff which has truth to it gets taken down with it.... The evidence would suggest that this could well have been a fall out from Cuba, amongst some very select off the range CIA guys(Davids Morales types perhaps) , elements of the mob via the John Roselli connection and militant Cubans. Big business, military industrial complex guys backed by LBJ, well that's when I think it just went too far without using what we do know to speculate and using what we dont know to speculate and going into fantasy land. This is what causes such problems for genuine research.... Pity..

Last edited by copenhagen; 24 Apr 13 at 04:38..
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Old 24 Apr 13, 11:39
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Quote:
Jumping to conclusions as you are doing here does nothing for this discussion. That they were in the CAP together does not indicate conspiring to assassinate JFK. I'm glad you can tell how old he is in the photo so we don't have to believe the photo is from 1951. You're sure now...right?
Read the material I provided.

Quote:
Unfortuantely an investigator telling Garrison anything has little meaning and contributes nothing toward an investigation.
The material I provided, which you didn't read, is the FBI transcript, nor Garrison's.


You have jumped to several odd conclusions. Do you know what 'evidence' is? Evidence is not proof. Proof is derived, by a consensus, from pieces of evidence. You don't have to be a lawyer to know that. This is good circumstantial evidence, the kind that is presented in courtrooms everyday.
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Last edited by unclefred; 24 Apr 13 at 11:48..
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Old 24 Apr 13, 11:42
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Do you think there is a possibility that a mob boss (unimpeachable witness, right) might lie to take credit for one of the most infamous murders of the 20th century. I guess we should also believe that the best hitman Carlos Marcello could come up with would be LHO, or was he the fall guy in a murder plot of proportions never seen in the mob before.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the HSCA and Church Commitee findings on these very mobsters being involved in plots, with the CIA, on Castro. The HSCA named them as probable conspirators in the JFK assassination. Too bad the primary mob witnesses were killed before providing more testimony...

I won't bother to provide the primary documents, you won't read them.
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Old 24 Apr 13, 13:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the HSCA and Church Commitee findings on these very mobsters being involved in plots, with the CIA, on Castro. The HSCA named them as probable conspirators in the JFK assassination. Too bad the primary mob witnesses were killed before providing more testimony...

I won't bother to provide the primary documents, you won't read them.
As you say the co-operation of the mob namely through Santos Trafficante and Carlos Marcello via John Roselli with the CIA is well documented when it came to Cuba and certain elements mutual loathing of JFK. But that they worked together on Cuba is not speculaltion at all. Whether it proves anything in regards to Dallas is a different matter of course. That they did co-operate is no longer in question though. As you say there is a lot of info out there. The thing is ,the mainstream wont touch it so people a) dont think its there or b)just assume its kooky lies or c) cant bring themsleves to actually look through the looking glass for fear of being accused of madness... I mean I find it amazing that no-one in the mainstream to this day bothers to look at the information that clearly shows LHO blatantly worked for US intelligence but the mainstream is just too wary to touch it....The BBC recently did a piece on David Morales with an interview with his lifelong friend but Europe has always taken a closer look at this than the US did. In the 60's even Paris Match did work on it.....
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Old 24 Apr 13, 15:00
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
As you say the co-operation of the mob namely through Santos Trafficante and Carlos Marcello via John Roselli with the CIA is well documented when it came to Cuba and certain elements mutual loathing of JFK. But that they worked together on Cuba is not speculaltion at all. Whether it proves anything in regards to Dallas is a different matter of course. That they did co-operate is no longer in question though. As you say there is a lot of info out there. The thing is ,the mainstream wont touch it so people a) dont think its there or b)just assume its kooky lies or c) cant bring themsleves to actually look through the looking glass for fear of being accused of madness... I mean I find it amazing that no-one in the mainstream to this day bothers to look at the information that clearly shows LHO blatantly worked for US intelligence but the mainstream is just too wary to touch it....The BBC recently did a piece on David Morales with an interview with his lifelong friend but Europe has always taken a closer look at this than the US did. In the 60's even Paris Match did work on it.....
The US press was pressured to keep silent from the beginning. Operation Mockingbird exposed some of why. The foreign press was very skeptical about the official story and where much more investigative.

I was on another history forum some time back and a poster stated 'it's ludicrous to believe the CIA would need to use the mafia for hits', this is why I don't believe in a conspiracy about JFK'.
I informed him about Cuba and the Congressional findings concerning the mafia and the CIA. I posted the links to the primary documents.
He didn't seem to digest that, and rather than evaluate this new chunk of reality, ignored it and posted some other uninformed opinion. He didn't seem to want to know the truth.

It's a bit depressing when we see that the openness of the 70's and the investigative spirit is gone and that kids are ignorant of these important history points.
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Old 24 Apr 13, 15:29
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I hadn't checked this out since it moved to its own thread.

Nothing really new.

I see nothing to refute my points;

1) Why put the shooter at such a bad angle if its is a multi-shooter conspiracy? You have to have every shooter at the same level, or the entry wound angles are going to be all wrong.

2) Why is Oswald, the heart & soul of a conspiracy cover-up, left unattended during the shooting?

3) Why bother with multiple shooters in the first place? Then & now anything's avalible in Dallas. Put a BAR or Thompson in play, and there are no uncertainties and no need for other shooters.

4) Why use someone with such a weird background? Why not use some local nut as the fall guy, and build a better connection. There are hundreds of radical crazies in a town the size of Dallas. Probably well over a thousand.

To fly as a conspiracy, you have to explain why such a half-a**ed plan was approved for such a desperate undertaking, and why a 100% secure cover-up was managed by a group who bungled the assassination so thoroughly. They managed to track and conceal/prevent any evidence or admission on record for decades, but couldn't keep eyes on Oswald for a hour.

Life is not neat & tidy. The JFK assassination looks like a real murder: untidy, lots of loose ends, and a sketchy outline of why.

Its when things line out nice & neat and everything fits that you have to start asking yourself WTF is going on.
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