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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean

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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #46  
Old 21 Apr 13, 16:32
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Not really. It overlooks a major choke point in that part of town. If you are going to run a motorcade in Dallas in the early 60s you go through there.

Plus it wasn't really necessary for him to work there-the area has a lot of convenient roofs.
I think you oversimplify his actions just a bit. By working in the TSBD he had a place he could bring his disassembling rifle, hide it until the right time, assemble it and fire on the motorcade. Had Oswald not left before the employee role was taken it would have taken much longer for the authorities to zero in on Oswald as the shooter. I don't think this might have been so easy from other buildings but hard to say definitively.
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  #47  
Old 21 Apr 13, 16:43
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Originally Posted by PhilipLaos View Post
The intriguing aspect of JFK's assassination for me has always been the sheer convenience of Oswald just happening to get a menial job in a conveniently high rise building, at a conveniently exact time, conveniently located in a prime spot overlooking JFK's future motorcade.

It looks like too clever and convenient of an arrangement to have been organized by one un-connected menial employee.
Philip
You might look in to the "convenience" of the change in the motorcade route. The original plan called for the motorcade to go straight down Main St. to the triple underpass, not to turn on Houston and then take a very hard turn on to Elm St. I recall it said that the Secret Service protocol for motorcades forbids turns like that since they slow the car down so much.
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  #48  
Old 21 Apr 13, 17:00
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
He was far from unconnected. It seems blatantly clear that at a low level he worked for US intelligence, probably the ONI.... He certainly had contact with the FBI during 1963 aswell....The evidence suggests he was an informant getting involved with militant anti Castro groups. The intriguing point is that at the same time it seems is identity was being painted as a very left wing pro Castro character....There is a great deal of evidence of an Oswald "character" making very blatant displays of rudeness intermixed with "obvious" communist/ anti Kennedy sympathies. The rifle range and the car dealer incidents being the two most notable along with the surveillance of him or whoever was portraying him in contact with the Cuban and Soviet Embassy...
The cliche often used to describe Oswald's activity with Fair Play for Cuba, etc. etc. etc. is "reverse laundry"
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  #49  
Old 21 Apr 13, 20:37
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RE Oswald and his going through a 'reverse laundry' multiple times -
See "Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty, America's Invisible Government, and the Hidden History of the Last Fifty Years" by Russ Baker
Edit: the link below goes to page 103. The "reverse laundering" discussion begins on page 101


http://books.google.com/books?id=mZC...oswald&f=false


wikipedia article on Russ Baker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Ba...ily_of_Secrets

Last edited by lakechampainer; 21 Apr 13 at 21:21..
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  #50  
Old 21 Apr 13, 23:12
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Originally Posted by unclefred View Post

Photo of Lee Harvey Oswald and David Ferrie in the Civil Air Patrol — In 1993, PBS' Frontline secured a 1951 photograph of the Louisiana Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans that shows both David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald in the same unit. Ferrie was included in New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's investigation (see previous entry). However, Ferrie denied to FBI investigators having ever known Oswald or having had any association with him. Ferrie of course, died before he could testify.

In the interest of accuracy this photo would have been taken when Oswald was 12 years old. Ferrie could well have been in Oswald's presence without ever being introduced to him as he was 20 years his senior. I would think there is a chance he might simply not have "known" Oswald at the time.
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  #51  
Old 21 Apr 13, 23:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
There's such a volume of material on Oswald you can find anything you want to support whatever you want. That's the whole problem with the JFK business: there are so many claims, legends, and allegations surrounding it, its extremely hard to tell what is fact and what is fiction.
There is a lot out there for two major reasons; one people like to try to make money off of historical events...look how many books are written on WWII with so many views on the same topics. Two, if you believe this murder was a conspiracy than you might entertain the idea that the conspirators were involved in a black op and used media to throw people off. The more stories out there the harder to follow the real one.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
But I keep going back to the facts which are known: the shooter was positioned with a second-rate bolt-action rifle firing at a steep angle, using FMJ ammunition. Not a smart move. If you are going to have multiple shooters, as the conspiracy goes, they have to be on similar heights and using identical weapons.
This makes no sense at all to me. As part of a conspiracy the Carcano could have been involved in the actual shooting or simply left to implicate Oswald. The conspiracy would hinge upon little film evidence, confusion and influence of existing evidence. The motorcade would not be officially filmed at that point so conspirators could hope to avoid any Zapruder like films or send their people to confiscate those they could spot. Many people did report such activities perhaps this didn't happen because Zapruder stood in the open and agents were afraid to approach him. There is no need to put other shooters anywhere but where they can effectively shoot and escape. The ammo from these guns will more than likely fragment or go through and through and control of any evidence would only need to be contained. The autopsy, for whatever reason, is a prime example of what happens in a situation like this. Planned or not a good, experienced black ops assassination team can expect this.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Then and now you can walk into any gun store in Dallas-Fort Worth and purchase a quality high-powered hunting rifle and a top of the line scope, and all the hollow-point ammunition you desire, no questions asked. If you have even a modest knowledge of criminals,, then & now, you can easily acquire an fully automatic weapon.
Is this your argument that the Carcano was not the assassination weapon? It wasn't good enough to do the job? You've also stated above that the angle of the shooting was wrong for the job. I think you need to make up your mind. I will remind you of one thing, the Carcano is a gun and will kill what it hits, FMJ ammo or soft nosed. I've fired the gun...it will kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Again, just my opinion. I have a low belief rating for conspiracies because it is so difficult to keep secrets when a group of any size is involved, and every conspiracy involving JFK inevitably is huge.
Why does one involved in the assassination let the cat out of the bag? Is it like. "I helped assassinate John Kennedy, can I have steak and potatoes for my last meal?" Many might not know they were involved, many might be silenced as witnesses like Bowers might have been, and others might stay quiet to stay alive or because in the assassination usiness you stay quiet. Please tell me why anyone would do otherwise?
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  #52  
Old 22 Apr 13, 00:40
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The Carcano was bought through the mail at a ridiculously low price. Oswald never even needed a gun store. I would imagine the FMJ ammo was the cheapest available. From what I have read there are at least four possible shooter positions: the Book Suppository (Sp?), the grassy knoll, a storm drain in front of the vehicle and a Secret Service Agent riding the car behind Kennedy's might have let go a round. He was carrying an AR 15 with the safety off.

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  #53  
Old 22 Apr 13, 16:46
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
In the interest of accuracy this photo would have been taken when Oswald was 12 years old. Ferrie could well have been in Oswald's presence without ever being introduced to him as he was 20 years his senior. I would think there is a chance he might simply not have "known" Oswald at the time.
I believe the photo was taken in 1955, Oswald would be 15 or 16. Ferrie was an instructor of the civil air patrol, in the photo they are on bivouac. It was Garrison witness Jack martin that told the FBI about the connection with Ferrie and Oswald. He told them he saw a photo at Ferries house of the two of them. Ferrie denied knowing Oswald when questioned by the FBI.
Original document here;

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/ar...&relPageId=219


In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations stated that available records "...lent substantial credence to the possibility that Oswald and [David] Ferrie had been involved in the same [Civil Air Patrol] C.A.P. unit during the same period of time."
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...9_4_Oswald.pdf

Committee investigators found six witnesses who said that Oswald had been present at Civil Air Patrol meetings headed by David Ferrie.
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  #54  
Old 22 Apr 13, 18:47
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Forgive me for asking, but was Ferrie accused of being Gay? This is not something J Edgar Hoover would have ignored when checking him out. I was a member of the Lake Charles Squadron of the CAP in 69-70 or so. We never went on bivouac. We had enough to do just going up in the Cessna.

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Old 22 Apr 13, 23:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
I believe the photo was taken in 1955, Oswald would be 15 or 16.
"In 1993, PBS' Frontline secured a 1951 photograph of the Louisiana Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans that shows both David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald in the same unit."

As I said my interest in the post was accuracy. You stated in your post that the photo was taken in 1951. If you want to contradict yourself go ahead but that will only make people doubt your credibility.

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Originally Posted by unclefred View Post
In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations stated that available records "...lent substantial credence to the possibility that Oswald and [David] Ferrie had been involved in the same [Civil Air Patrol] C.A.P. unit during the same period of time."
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...9_4_Oswald.pdf

Committee investigators found six witnesses who said that Oswald had been present at Civil Air Patrol meetings headed by David Ferrie.
They may have served in the same CAP unit without Ferrie really knowing him, depending on how things were done.
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  #56  
Old 22 Apr 13, 23:39
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Forgive me for asking, but was Ferrie accused of being Gay? This is not something J Edgar Hoover would have ignored when checking him out. I was a member of the Lake Charles Squadron of the CAP in 69-70 or so. We never went on bivouac. We had enough to do just going up in the Cessna.

Pruitt
Check the Wikipedia article on him. It lists a numbers of offenses of different description which coulf be described as "gay."
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Old 23 Apr 13, 02:36
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John,

I did some research and from what I read, Lee Harvey Oswald was in the right age group that Ferrie was interested in. I can't believe Ferrie never checked him out. While I can't say how well they knew each other, I think they knew each other well enough. That "bivouac" reminds me too much of "camping trips" that some gay guys used to recruit young teenagers.

I remembered some about Ferrie but was trying to be polite.

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Old 23 Apr 13, 10:21
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
"In 1993, PBS' Frontline secured a 1951 photograph of the Louisiana Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans that shows both David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald in the same unit."

As I said my interest in the post was accuracy. You stated in your post that the photo was taken in 1951. If you want to contradict yourself go ahead but that will only make people doubt your credibility.



They may have served in the same CAP unit without Ferrie really knowing him, depending on how things were done.
I posted the source documents. I don't think we are discussing the biblical knowing.
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Old 23 Apr 13, 10:22
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John,

I did some research and from what I read, Lee Harvey Oswald was in the right age group that Ferrie was interested in. I can't believe Ferrie never checked him out. While I can't say how well they knew each other, I think they knew each other well enough. That "bivouac" reminds me too much of "camping trips" that some gay guys used to recruit young teenagers.

I remembered some about Ferrie but was trying to be polite.

Pruitt
The photo isn't the interesting connection. He was a kid pre USMC and life has coincidences like that. No the connection is this. David Ferrie was a pilot who used to run guns in and out of Cuba pre and post the revolution for the mob ( Carlos Marcello) and the CIA who both intermixed when it came to gun running out of Cuba. In doing so Ferrie became intermixed with very right wing anti Castro groups who operated out of a building in New Orleans which was the office for a private eye by the name of Guy Bannister a man with very right wing inclinations and a former operative for the ONI if the word former ever applies in that regard. Oswald ran his branch of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee from a different address but inside the same building ( its was a corner street building) as the anti Castro group with Bannister and Ferrie. The above isn't conjecture, its known. Ferrie knew Oswald.

As to Ferrie being gay well he was thrown out of the Priesthood school for lewd behaviour. Hoover being gay himself probably didn't care about that and even if he did the FBI weren't going to go digging a connection that took them away from the lone shooter story that Washington wanted to stick. A) because a "communist" conspiracy could possibly lead to war and B) the FBI had had contact with Oswald leading up to Dallas which no-one would have wanted to explain...
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Old 23 Apr 13, 10:35
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The picture, sent in anonymously, has import because it was Garrison's investigator that told the FBI that Ferrie was involved in the assassination and that he saw a photo of Ferrie and Oswald together in Ferries home from when they were in the CAP together. I provided the FBI transcript.

This was all denied by Ferrie and the FBI dropped it. Now, decades later we find that they were in the CAP together and there is a photo, (with an Oswald that is obviously not 12 yo ). This gives credence to the original testimony about Ferries involvement in the Assassination.

This is good evidence that would have weight in any investigation. Unfortunately, the deaths of witnesses hampered Garrison's ability to nail things down.

Also, secretly taped admissions by Mobster Carlos Marcello revealing “Yeah, I had the son of a bitch killed. I’m glad I did. I’m sorry I couldn’t have done it myself!”. Also naming Ferrie, who was Marcello's pilot and investigator, introduced him to Oswald and that they were involved in the plot. hE also disclosed that he had set up Ruby in the bar business. These tapes were made in 1985, I believe, and kept secret by the FBI.
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