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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean

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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #16  
Old 14 Apr 13, 05:53
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Originally Posted by PhilipLaos View Post
The intriguing aspect of JFK's assassination for me has always been the sheer convenience of Oswald just happening to get a menial job in a conveniently high rise building, at a conveniently exact time, conveniently located in a prime spot overlooking JFK's future motorcade.

It looks like too clever and convenient of an arrangement to have been organized by one un-connected menial employee.


Philip
Not really. It overlooks a major choke point in that part of town. If you are going to run a motorcade in Dallas in the early 60s you go through there.

Plus it wasn't really necessary for him to work there-the area has a lot of convenient roofs.
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  #17  
Old 14 Apr 13, 05:53
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Because it comes across much cleaner.

The shooter is a small-time criminal, a complete nobody. Zero ties with anyone. They have him buying the weapon in person, its a high-powered hunting rifle with a good scope. Weapon supplies, ammunition, and data on King are found in his rented room, a public area of which is the shooter's spot. The suspect is seen dumping his weapon and fleeing. The weapon has his prints on it. The shooter is taken alive, and denies the murder, but the above is irrefutable.

Nice, neat, tidy.

The shooter claims he was contacted by an agent of the FBI to serve as an informant. His agent tells him to do various things, such as stay at a particular rooming house, and by a rifle. The shooter claims he knows nothing of rifles, and ends up having to return the rifle in order to get the same model in a different caliber. He says that when the shooting goes down he's waiting for a phone call in the public area where the shots came from. Realizing he was set up, he ditches the weapon & flees.

That's what a conspiracy looks like, IMO: neat and tidy. Real murders are messy and have lots of unanswered points and loose ends.
My knowledge of the MLK murder is limited so at the moment i'll take your word for it... maybe some people learn from their mistakes. I'm being flippant but you never know...


Well you say it wasn't a clean hit. Well kennedy was killed. The third shot being a very good one if you pardon the expression. What may have gone wrong IF we assume its was a conspiracy is that LHO was taken into custody by the police not killed as a cop killer possibly according to the plan. The reason I say this is because one must look at who subsequently killed LHO, this of course being Jack Ruby. If one analyses who this man was and his associates then it quickly becomes apparent that the notion that he wanted to prevent Jackie the pain of a trial is simply nonsense. He had links to arms trafficking to anti castro groups and had himself beeen involved with Santos Trafficante in Cuba before and just after the revolution...Its not that I would say this is definitley what happened, its more that the official story is on the basis of probablity very suspect...

Last edited by copenhagen; 14 Apr 13 at 06:04..
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  #18  
Old 14 Apr 13, 06:00
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
My knowledge of the MLK murder is limited so at the moment i'll take your word for it... maybe some people learn from their mistakes. I'm being flippant but you never know...
You do never know. Although Oliver Stone got one thing right: the black ops people in 1963 were very good. Its hard imagining professionals producing the cluster that occurred in Nov '63.

Although, never say never...
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Old 14 Apr 13, 06:08
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Not really. It overlooks a major choke point in that part of town. If you are going to run a motorcade in Dallas in the early 60s you go through there.

Plus it wasn't really necessary for him to work there-the area has a lot of convenient roofs.
Again Arnold I have to disagree. The original plan was to bypass Dealey Plaza entirely and go straight along Main street to the Holland Expressway underpass. Only shortly before the Dallas trip was it changed to turn on to Houston Street an then on to Elm where this lone nut just happened to work... Proof? of course not.Co-incidence? Anything is possible. Make you think again? Yes for me...
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Old 14 Apr 13, 06:10
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
You do never know. Although Oliver Stone got one thing right: the black ops people in 1963 were very good. Its hard imagining professionals producing the cluster that occurred in Nov '63.

Although, never say never...
Cluster? Well he was killed if it was a hit.... They had done some good work these people as you say but had made an utter arse of killing Castro....This assumes that the CIA's black's op personnel or some of them had something to do with all this....There is some substantial circumstantial evidence for the possibility but its a hell of an assumption...

Last edited by copenhagen; 14 Apr 13 at 06:23..
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Old 14 Apr 13, 07:02
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Cluster? Well he was killed if it was a hit.... They had done some good work these people as you say but had made an utter arse of killing Castro....This assumes that the CIA's black's op personnel or some of them had something to do with all this....There is some substantial circumstantial evidence for the possibility but its a hell of an assumption...
I mean making such a shambles out of the cover-up. Killing JFK was always the lowest point of difficulty. Killing him and making it look like something else, that was the real mission.

Oswald, if it was a conspiracy, was a bad choice. Too complex of a background. Too many question marks. Back then investigative reporting was the norm.

You know, something I've always wondered was that if Oswald killed JFK in the hopes that his checkered background would create problems for the US intelligence services.
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  #22  
Old 14 Apr 13, 07:35
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I mean making such a shambles out of the cover-up. Killing JFK was always the lowest point of difficulty. Killing him and making it look like something else, that was the real mission.

Oswald, if it was a conspiracy, was a bad choice. Too complex of a background. Too many question marks. Back then investigative reporting was the norm.

You know, something I've always wondered was that if Oswald killed JFK in the hopes that his checkered background would create problems for the US intelligence services.
Well in that sense you'd be right in that it would seem probable if we assume a conspiracy that the aim was to paint LHO as an associate of Castro who had had him kill JFK. As we know there were people trying to portray him as a Marxist, pro Castro, anti Kennedy and a person that talked about assassinating the president. This evidence is numerous. At the same time he was doing pro Castro leafleting in N.O. it was out of the same building occupied by vehement anti Castro people. That's not even speculation. So the conclusion one could make is that a certain group wanting the world to believe Castro had been behind the asssassination with the ensuing response that LBJ would remove Castro. If that was the case then yes they failed. It is interesting to note that is exactly what LBJ feared was the case. From his tapes alone we know he was concerned that this Oswald could be connected in some way to Castro (these tapes are on youtube) with his worry that it could snowball into war. When he is trying to recruit one of the future members of the Warren commision, one of his arguments for this man "serving his country" is that is what they must prevent. I'm paraphrasing here but the public must be satisfied that LHO killed JFK on his own. In the context of the time I can understand LBJ's point....Hence why so much evidence that pointed to the contrary is either suppressed, maligned or simply ignored....

As you mentioned investigative reporting being the norm at the time. Look up Dorothy Kilgallen...

Last edited by copenhagen; 14 Apr 13 at 07:43..
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  #23  
Old 14 Apr 13, 08:28
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You're right, there's a thousand different factors.

Oswald is the reason why the Secret Service now has jurisdiction over assassins; they don't want another storm of controversy dragging on for generations.

Of course, that doesn't always help; Sirhan has been billed as a pawn of a conspiracy.
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Old 14 Apr 13, 11:15
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COPE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Again Arnold I have to disagree. The original plan was to bypass Dealey Plaza entirely and go straight along Main street to the Holland Expressway underpass. Only shortly before the Dallas trip was it changed to turn on to Houston Street an then on to Elm where this lone nut just happened to work... Proof? of course not.Co-incidence? Anything is possible. Make you think again? Yes for me...
First, you
worte a two hundred word blurb on how insulted you were by a cartoon pix BECAUSE you linked it to you. That's just silliness...

SECOND: There are TWO 'theory choke points' - one - the nieghbour who alerts LHO to the book repository job turns out to be a'humble four square fellow'

Two: The person or persons who changes the tour route is key- no change , Oswald's out of reachso, where's your two smoking gun people?? forget , for a moment , about mafias & Cubans popping out of the woodwork.
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Old 14 Apr 13, 15:12
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Perhaps you should start a thread

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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Take the mick all you like. As I've said but you've chosen to ignore, the research doesn't prove anything but it is interesting.You clearly aren't wildly read on this subject whether that be the assasination itself or the ops against Castro which did involve the mob and as anyone who was widely read would at least entertain the widely known background of Oswald and it is widely known. As I said, I would get attacked for being a kook for just that Oswald background information and that's ok. Comes with the territory....
I read up on this inthe '70's , and time fades all. Back on topic:
"
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Old 14 Apr 13, 15:18
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I read up on this inthe '70's , and time fades all. Back on topic:
"
You read it in the 70's? 40 years later and nothing else to learn then? I've addressed the topic. Just above. Fairly straight forward really. I was talking to Arnold about it, the man who started this thread . If you dont want to get involved, don't. This is a good discussion, why do you have to be such an arse about it?

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Old 14 Apr 13, 15:37
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
You read it in the 70's? 40 years later and nothing else to learn then? I've addressed the topic. Just above. Fairly straight forward really. I was talking to Arnold about it, the man who started this thread . If you dont want to get involved, don't. This is a good discussion, why do you have to be such an arse about it?
Good posts Copenhagen, you are right

People have not been informed by our -investigative media-cough, about the revelations concerning the the CIA and FBI involvement with Oswald right up until the shootings. The thousands of documents uncovered by the ARRB in the nineties shows clearly that the CIA was monitoring his activities at a very high secret level. He was an FBI informant, which was admitted by the FBI thirty years later.

After all, we have solid proof that Oswald was impersonated at the embassy in Mexico and on the phone to the Soviets. We have the transcripts of Hoover and LBJ discussing that information. It was then that they decided to dump it all in the 'solved lone gunman' file.

"The CIA advised that on October 1, 1963, an extremely sensitive source had reported that an individual identified himself as Lee Oswald, who contacted the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City inquiring as to any messages. Special Agents of this Bureau, who have conversed with Oswald in Dallas, Texas, have observed photographs of the individual referred to above, and have listened to a recording of his voice. These special agents are of the opinion that the above-referred-to individual was not Lee Harvey Oswald."

http://www.history-matters.com/frameup.htm
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Old 14 Apr 13, 16:10
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Good posts Copenhagen, you are right

People have not been informed by our -investigative media-cough, about the revelations concerning the the CIA and FBI involvement with Oswald right up until the shootings. The thousands of documents uncovered by the ARRB in the nineties shows clearly that the CIA was monitoring his activities at a very high secret level. He was an FBI informant, which was admitted by the FBI thirty years later.

After all, we have solid proof that Oswald was impersonated at the embassy in Mexico and on the phone to the Soviets. We have the transcripts of Hoover and LBJ discussing that information. It was then that they decided to dump it all in the 'solved lone gunman' file.

"The CIA advised that on October 1, 1963, an extremely sensitive source had reported that an individual identified himself as Lee Oswald, who contacted the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City inquiring as to any messages. Special Agents of this Bureau, who have conversed with Oswald in Dallas, Texas, have observed photographs of the individual referred to above, and have listened to a recording of his voice. These special agents are of the opinion that the above-referred-to individual was not Lee Harvey Oswald."

http://www.history-matters.com/frameup.htm
Yes indeed, thankyou for your response... This data isn't really in question anymore to be honest. The man was an operative no question and someone was painting him as a Marxist who was interested in assasination. Maybe he did do it, I don't know. Ruth Paine suggesting the TSBD job is an issue I can't reconcile to the idea of a wider plot at face value however the data you mention means that something was going on way beyond what the Warren Commission story says....LBJ's chats to Hoover alone infer they had suspicions... Thanks again for your comments....

Quote:
"No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there." J. Edgar Hoover
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde...ico_City_Tapes

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Old 14 Apr 13, 17:11
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Yes indeed, thankyou for your response... This data isn't really in question anymore to be honest. The man was an operative no question and someone was painting him as a Marxist who was interested in assasination. Maybe he did do it, I don't know. Ruth Paine suggesting the TSBD job is an issue I can't reconcile to the idea of a wider plot at face value however the data you mention means that something was going on way beyond what the Warren Commission story says....LBJ's chats to Hoover alone infer they had suspicions... Thanks again for your comments....
It pretty well puts to sleep the idea that he acted alone, at the very least. As you alluded to, the evidence against him is circumstantial and most of it could have been refuted and had doubt placed on it by an attorney in court. The chain of custody on key items such as the 'magic bullet', postal records, fingerprints etc. was broken and could have been discredited. Witness statements don't work well in the official timeline. along with what he may have brought out himself in testimony, it's no wonder they had Ruby silence him. Remember, the head of security at Oswalds move from jail was allowed to PICK HIS OWN questions and still failed the polygraph.
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Old 14 Apr 13, 17:58
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It pretty well puts to sleep the idea that he acted alone, at the very least. As you alluded to, the evidence against him is circumstantial and most of it could have been refuted and had doubt placed on it by an attorney in court. The chain of custody on key items such as the 'magic bullet', postal records, fingerprints etc. was broken and could have been discredited. Witness statements don't work well in the official timeline. along with what he may have brought out himself in testimony, it's no wonder they had Ruby silence him. Remember, the head of security at Oswalds move from jail was allowed to PICK HIS OWN questions and still failed the polygraph.
If I take what I have read and speculate, I suspect that where it went wrong was that a) I dont think Oswald was supposed to be arrested alive and b) Castro was not implicated as being behind JFK's murder so the US did not remove Castro as I speculate was the overall intention...
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