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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #16  
Old 01 Feb 13, 21:16
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Probably Picasso's most famous work, Guernica is certainly the his most powerful political statement, painted as an immediate reaction to the Nazi's devastating casual bombing practice on the Basque town of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

At about 16:30 on Monday, 26 April 1937, warplanes of the German Condor Legion, commanded by Colonel Wolfram von Richthofen, bombed Guernica for about two hours. Germany, at this time led by Hitler, had lent material support to the Nationalists and were using the war as an opportunity to test out new weapons and tactics. Later, intense aerial bombardment became a crucial preliminary step in the Blitzkrieg tactic.

Guernica shows the tragedies of war and the suffering it inflicts upon individuals, particularly innocent civilians. This work has gained a monumental status, becoming a perpetual reminder of the tragedies of war, an anti-war symbol, and an embodiment of peace.

On completion, Guernica was displayed around the world in a brief tour, becoming famous and widely acclaimed. This tour helped bring the Spanish Civil War to the world's attention.



From: http://www.pablopicasso.org/guernica.jsp
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  #17  
Old 01 Feb 13, 21:43
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Really? well, I have here "El Factor Olvidado" La Marina Británica y la Guerra Civil Española. This is by Peter Gretton, so it might posible to find the book in English:

During the economic crisis of August 1931, a government in England was formed under Ramsey MacDonald. Shortly afterwards Britain abandoned the gold standard. The world had been at relative peace but that was about to end. Japan invaded Manchuria in September 1931 and the League of Nations did nothing. This was not lost on the dictators of Europe at the time. In 1932 the great Conference on Disarmament failed completely. Miguel Primo de Rivera having been removed from power, Spain was moving towards another civil war.

In June of 1935 the Anglo-German naval treaty was signed. Stanley Baldwin succeeded Ramsey MacDonald as prime minister. This time was followed by the crisis in Abysinnia courtesy of the Italians. The settlement gave Italy everything she wanted. Also during this time was the approval by the USA congress, of a Law of Neutrality, which sadly meant a Law of Inaction. So then in 1936 when the rebellion against the Spanish Republic broke out, there remained little assistance from the League of Nations to which Spain was a member to defend itself from other signatories who were only interested in helping Franco and his facists.

In 1936 only a few had the courage to openly speak of what was happening in Spain, among them Winston Churchill. The rest of the countries did nothing, although bound by the League Nations treaty to help a member.

It was the German and Italian planes which transported Franco's africanistas from Morrocco to Sevilla where the rebellion had taken control in 1936. Understanding a war means you must know the background, Not just write a few sentences of criticisms of things you not like. Chill out dude. Next chapter the troop transports and how both the the Italians, Germans as well as the the British helped Franco's recruits from Morrocco cross the Straits of Gibraltar.
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Last edited by Nickuru; 02 Feb 13 at 03:31.. Reason: syntax
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  #18  
Old 02 Feb 13, 01:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post
Really? well, I have here "El Factor Olvidado" La Marina Británica y la Guerra Civil Española. This is by Peter Gretton, so it might posible to find the book in English:

During the economic crisis of August 1931, a government in England was formed under Ramsey MacDonald. Shortly afterwards Britain abandoned the gold standard. The world had been at relative peace but that was about to end. Japan invaded Manchuria in September 1931 and the League of Nations did nothing. This was not lost on the dictators of Europe at the time. In 1932 the great Conference on Disarmament failed completely. Miguel Primo de Rivera having been removed from power, Spain was moving towards another civil war.

In June of 1935 the Anglo-German naval treaty was signed. Stanley Baldwin succeeded Ramsey MacDonald as prime minister. This time was followed by the crisis in Abysinnia courtesy of the Italians. The settlement gave Italy everything she wanted. Also during this time was the approval by the USA congress, of a Law of Neutrality, which sadly meant a Law of Inaction. So then in 1936 when the rebellion against the Spanish Republic broke out, there remained little assistance from the League of Nations to which Spain was a member to defend itself from other signatories who were only interested in helping Franco and his facists.

In 1936 only a few had the courage to openly speak of what was happening in Spain, among them Winston Churchill. The rest of the countries did nothing, although bound by the League Nations treaty to help a member.

It was the German and Italian planes which transported Franco's africanistas from Morrocco to Sevilla where the rebellion had taken control in 1936. Understanding a war means you must know the background, Not just write a few sentences of criticisms of things you not like. Chill out dude. Next chapter the troop transports and how bother the Italians, Germans and the British helped Franco's recruits from Morrocco cros the Straits of Gibraltar.
Chill out dude? are you sure you are British? Or are you beneath false colours? You have just come out with another string of blurb none of which tackles the original question,which was as follows,......'Did foreign aid make a differance to the outcome of the Spanish civil war'. And I said that it was the German backing (sorry I left out the Italians) particularly the Luftwaffe that made the final outcome without doubt, plus possibly another European Dictator ally for Hitler but there he overstepped his mark for Franco did not want to know about the 2nd WW.Now be a good boy,go and have a lie down you will be better afterwards. lcm1
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Old 02 Feb 13, 03:17
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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
I'd like to add that regular Italian army units were sent in as well. The Germans tend to get a lot more press, but the Italians were there in force compared to them.
Yep. I've seen estimates of 50,000 Italian "volunteers".
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Old 02 Feb 13, 03:20
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Originally Posted by 17thfabn View Post
In regards to a few of your points:

1. Spain's high unemployment rate would be a bonus, manpower for manufacuturing.

4. Even though their armed forces might be weak, a Spanish enemy at their back with the Germans to their front would complicate France's defensive plan in 1940. As it turned out it didn't matter.
Spain relied on British controlled supplies of fuel and cereal. The British reminded the Spanish on which side the bread buttered at least once.
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Old 02 Feb 13, 03:47
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Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Spain relied on British controlled supplies of fuel and cereal. The British reminded the Spanish on which side the bread buttered at least once.
I totally agree, Britain had the economic power at the time, but under the developing conditions in Europe at the time the government of Stanley Baldwin was completely oblivious to what was being developed. I tried once to read Alois Schickelgruber's Mein Kampf (written as Adolf Hitler) but I could not get past even the halfway mark before I threw it up against a wall in disgust.

Stanley Baldwin was an admirer of Adolf Hitler. It was he who threatened Leon Blum's French government with the breaking of treaties if France allowed weapons the Spanish government had paid for were to be delivered. And this towards a fellow member of the League of Nations. This from The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Cockpit by Franz Borkenau, The Spanish Republic and the Civil War by Gabriel Jackson, The Spanish Labyrinth by Gerald Brenan. This information supplied for the benefit of others who are intolerant of other opinions.
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Old 02 Feb 13, 04:12
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Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post
I totally agree, Britain had the economic power at the time, but under the developing conditions in Europe at the time the government of Stanley Baldwin was completely oblivious to what was being developed. I tried once to read Alois Schickelgruber's Mein Kampf (written as Adolf Hitler) but I could not get past even the halfway mark before I threw it up against a wall in disgust.

Stanley Baldwin was an admirer of Adolf Hitler. It was he who threatened Leon Blum's French government with the breaking of treaties if France allowed weapons the Spanish government had paid for were to be delivered. And this towards a fellow member of the League of Nations. This from The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Cockpit by Franz Borkenau, The Spanish Republic and the Civil War by Gabriel Jackson, The Spanish Labyrinth by Gerald Brenan. This information supplied for the benefit of others who are intolerant of other opinions.
Stanley Baldwin an "admirer" of Adolf Hitler ? That's stretching things rather I think. Perhaps he viewed the Fuhrer as a fellow Tory- before experience taught him better. But he certainly curbed the militant street demonstrations of the British Union of Fascists with the very rapid passage of the 1936 Public Order Act.

That said, it will be noted that Winston Churchill said, upon hearing that the Luftwaffe had bombed a Baldwin Steel Works, " How very ungrateful of them!". However, he was probably had in mind the Baldwin government's neglect of Britain's defences during the mid-30s.
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Old 02 Feb 13, 04:21
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It tells you all you need to know, that the Condor Legion almost immediately stated that Guernica was a tragic mistake - and that the intended target had been a bridge outside the town.

Incendiaries are extremely effective against stone, aren't they ?
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Old 02 Feb 13, 08:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post
I totally agree, Britain had the economic power at the time, but under the developing conditions in Europe at the time the government of Stanley Baldwin was completely oblivious to what was being developed. I tried once to read Alois Schickelgruber's Mein Kampf (written as Adolf Hitler) but I could not get past even the halfway mark before I threw it up against a wall in disgust.

Stanley Baldwin was an admirer of Adolf Hitler. It was he who threatened Leon Blum's French government with the breaking of treaties if France allowed weapons the Spanish government had paid for were to be delivered. And this towards a fellow member of the League of Nations. This from The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Cockpit by Franz Borkenau, The Spanish Republic and the Civil War by Gabriel Jackson, The Spanish Labyrinth by Gerald Brenan. This information supplied for the benefit of others who are intolerant of other opinions.
Now Nick, despite what has already been said ,i have no wish to fall out with you but I was alive when S Baldwin was in power and I cannot swallow him being an admirer of Hitler.I plainly remember the very efficiant way he stamped on Oswald Moseley and his Fascist cavorting.I may not be so well read as you but I have lived a long time and remember all these differant happenings,so don't go too overboard with your statements out of books,there's a good old matey!! P.S. Don't be mislead by the Australian flag,I lived the first 45 years of my life in Britain (apart for war service). lcm1
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Old 02 Feb 13, 08:33
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I'd like to add that regular Italian army units were sent in as well. The Germans tend to get a lot more press, but the Italians were there in force compared to them.
John I know they did,they spent a long time in the 30s and 40s following in "Fathers footsteps' but the Germans did it with an eye to the future,it was a perfect training ground for what was coming and perhaps to gather another Ally under their wing. lcm1
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Old 02 Feb 13, 12:48
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Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Spain relied on British controlled supplies of fuel and cereal. The British reminded the Spanish on which side the bread buttered at least once.
I am sure that was a key point.

I would think Franco would have worried about the stability of his country with out the army there to protect his regime from the Republican forces he hed recently defeated.

Per latest reports from Saturday Night Live's news desk Fransico Franco is still dead. (You would probably have to be American or perhaps Canadian and well over 40 to get that one)
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Old 02 Feb 13, 13:08
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In terms of the civil war:

No German and Italian help for Franco he loses. With it it is still something of a close run war outcome.

No Republican help from the Soviets, and elsewhere they might lose, they might win.
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Old 02 Feb 13, 13:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Most certainly.

No Condor Legion = Franco's army stuck in Morrocco.


A lot of those troops were transported in Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM-82s. The Italian Air Force was heavily involved, as well as the army.
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Old 02 Feb 13, 14:18
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Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
A spanish corps of IIRC, about 35,000 men was sent to the russian front in 1942(they were a volunteer ourfit)and anti-communist to the full! They were supplied with german equipment. They fought and died and some were even left for epic the battle of Berlin, like 100 or so, by that time. They fought bravely and were considered an asset on the front, not a liability like a romanian or italian army was. Accounts of survivors that returned to Spain after the war were looked apon as being heros...
The Blaue Division, aka División Española de Voluntarios.






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Old 02 Feb 13, 15:32
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Originally Posted by Desiree Clary View Post
A lot of those troops were transported in Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM-82s. The Italian Air Force was heavily involved, as well as the army.
As was the Italian navy.
It's a lesser known fact that German U-boats as well as Italian submarines were active during the Spanish Civil War.
Interesting article here:
http://www.uboat.net/articles/59.html

This is an interesting article for those wanting to learn more about the Italian involvement in the SCW
The Consequences of Italian Intervention in the Spanish Civil War
http://www.belliludi.com/sullivan_english.html

Last edited by CarpeDiem; 02 Feb 13 at 15:41..
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