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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #1  
Old 31 Jan 13, 18:21
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Spanish Civil War, how much difference did foreign involvment make?

I'm posting this under World War II because I think of the Spanish Civil War as sort of a dress rehearsal for World War II.

As we know the Nationalist forces with support from Germany and Italy defeated the Republican forces supported by the Soviet Union. Both sides had other support as well.

Which side received the most outside assistance?

Did outside assistance alter the results of the war?
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  #2  
Old 31 Jan 13, 18:49
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Most certainly.

No Condor Legion = Franco's army stuck in Morrocco.

Without the latest German and Italian kit and the, 'Volunteers,' from both cycled through Spain, government troops and paramilitaries may well have been able to crush Franco's rebellion.

The Soviets apart, most aid to the Republican cause came in the form of the International Brigades - Communist and Socialist volunteers who paid their own fairs to get to Spain and arrived without food, equipment or training - while the Nationalist cause was aided by supply-laden military detachments (capable of operating virtually autonomously) fully trained and superbly-equipped.

Had the international embargo truly worked, and there had been no intervention, the best Franco could've hoped for was a peace treaty after both sides had fought to exhaustion. Instead, his German and Italian allies made him the undisputed master of Spain for decades.
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Old 31 Jan 13, 19:10
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It was a training ground for German equipment and Russian equipment, it was a place to get some training and see what worked and didn't work.

First mass effect of bombing on a civilian area...

First use of 88mm in a ground attack role...

Air tactics were studied and honed and were the latest fighter aircraft...
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Old 31 Jan 13, 19:18
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Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
It was a training ground for German equipment and Russian equipment, it was a place to get some training and see what worked and didn't work.

First mass effect of bombing on a civilian area...

First use of 88mm in a ground attack role...

Air tactics were studied and honed and were the latest fighter aircraft...
You have it exactly Hetz: lcm1
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Old 31 Jan 13, 21:16
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Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Had the international embargo truly worked, and there had been no intervention, the best Franco could've hoped for was a peace treaty after both sides had fought to exhaustion. Instead, his German and Italian allies made him the undisputed master of Spain for decades.
I agree.

The elected government - although not saints - would have held off the rebels.
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Old 01 Feb 13, 10:48
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Spain and Germany were in talks for the longest time after the civil war, on if Spain would join the axis powers. There was good and bad to the deal. Well, more bad than good would be a better statement.

1. Spain had very high unemployment, and production of everything was hurting.
2. There was a fuel and FOOD shortage that could not be solved internally.
3. It would have provided a nice jumping off point for attack on Gibraltar, but this came to nothing.
4. There armed forces were weak by comparision.
5. U boat bases would be in a better position for convoy attack.

There was just a whole can of worms in Spain that Germany could not afford, and keep its own people fed as well. Franco was also crafty and an agile statesman, not to be dealth with easily. Hitler could put up with him only so long, and then forgot about him quickly.
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Old 01 Feb 13, 11:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
It was a training ground for German equipment and Russian equipment, it was a place to get some training and see what worked and didn't work.
While this aspect developed itself I would say the real underlying factor was political. An opportunity to fight the spread of Communism for the Fascist powers and to obtain a future Ally. Which turned out sour.

Britain did not object to this very much. France, much more into the Communist sphere at the time, did.

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Old 01 Feb 13, 11:14
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Originally Posted by leandros View Post
While this aspect developed itself I would say the real underlying factor was political. An opportunity to fight the spread of Communism for the Fascist powers and to obtain a future Ally. Which turned out sour.

Britain did not object to this very much. France, much more into the Communist sphere at the time, did.

Fred
Agreed. When other powers stepped in to offer their "help", thats when trouble cropped up real quick.
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Old 01 Feb 13, 12:36
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I'd like to add that regular Italian army units were sent in as well. The Germans tend to get a lot more press, but the Italians were there in force compared to them.
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Old 01 Feb 13, 14:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
Spain and Germany were in talks for the longest time after the civil war, on if Spain would join the axis powers. There was good and bad to the deal. Well, more bad than good would be a better statement.

1. Spain had very high unemployment, and production of everything was hurting.
2. There was a fuel and FOOD shortage that could not be solved internally.
3. It would have provided a nice jumping off point for attack on Gibraltar, but this came to nothing.
4. There armed forces were weak by comparision.
5. U boat bases would be in a better position for convoy attack.

.
In regards to a few of your points:

1. Spain's high unemployment rate would be a bonus, manpower for manufacuturing.

4. Even though their armed forces might be weak, a Spanish enemy at their back with the Germans to their front would complicate France's defensive plan in 1940. As it turned out it didn't matter.
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Old 01 Feb 13, 15:45
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Originally Posted by 17thfabn View Post
In regards to a few of your points:

1. Spain's high unemployment rate would be a bonus, manpower for manufacuturing.

4. Even though their armed forces might be weak, a Spanish enemy at their back with the Germans to their front would complicate France's defensive plan in 1940. As it turned out it didn't matter.
That was discussed, having German manufacturing on Spainish soil, The Fuhrer would not hear of it, and Franco wasnt that happy about it either. Skilled labor was needed not this kind of labor! Italy was already a heavy burden for Germany to prop up, and just the OIL that it needed to keep things going cost Germany much, in terms of what the army could do in the field.

A spanish corps of IIRC, about 35,000 men was sent to the russian front in 1942(they were a volunteer ourfit)and anti-communist to the full! They were supplied with german equipment. They fought and died and some were even left for epic the battle of Berlin, like 100 or so, by that time. They fought bravely and were considered an asset on the front, not a liability like a romanian or italian army was. Accounts of survivors that returned to Spain after the war were looked apon as being heros...
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Old 01 Feb 13, 17:38
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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
I'd like to add that regular Italian army units were sent in as well. The Germans tend to get a lot more press, but the Italians were there in force compared to them.
I already mentioned the German and Italian, 'Volunteers.' Everybody knew they were regular military units on rotation, but nobody admitted it.
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Old 01 Feb 13, 18:18
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Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
It was a training ground for German equipment and Russian equipment, it was a place to get some training and see what worked and didn't work.

First mass effect of bombing on a civilian area...

First use of 88mm in a ground attack role...

Air tactics were studied and honed and were the latest fighter aircraft...
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Old 01 Feb 13, 19:11
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Spain had undergone almost a century of civil wars since the time of the Napoleonic invasions. To be quite honest Spain was falling apart. After the USA provoked the war of 1898 when the battleship Maine was sent to Havana, for no reason whatsoever. The American warmongerers decided to use her explosion as a cassus belli. The explosion was caused by a defective magazine explosion, the same event ocurred in one of her sister ships in 1905. Much the same as the British battlecruisers at Jutland and the Hood in 1941, the French Liberte in 1905 and the Russian Black Sea dreadnought Imperatriza Maria in 1916.

Spain lost all her overseas posessions, along with the economic loss from this war. Being a rocky mountainous country with not too many resources the employment situation was getting worse after the Carlista wars. The conservative Cánovas and the liberal Sagasta alternated as Prime minister until 1905. Sagasta died of a heart attack and in 1906 Cánovas was assasinated. Spain was politically adrift. This was until the only decent dictator of the 20th century arrived on the scene. Miguel Primo de Rivera in 1921. The country was fortunate not to have joined in the WWI.
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Last edited by Nickuru; 01 Feb 13 at 21:00.. Reason: syntax
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Old 01 Feb 13, 20:46
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Spain had undergone almost a century of civil wars since the time of the Napoleonic invasions. To be quite honest Spain was falling apart. After the USA provoked the war of 1898 when the battleship Maine was sent to Havana, for no reason whatsoever. The American warmongerers decided to use her explosion as a cassus belli. The explosion was caused by a defective magazine explosion, the same event ocurred in one of her sister shipsin 1905. Much the same as the British battlecruisers at Jutland and the Hood in 1941, the French Liberte in 1905 and the Russian Black Sea dreadnought Imperatriza Maria in 1916.

Spain lost all her overseas posessions, along with the economic loss from this war. Being a rocky mountainous country with not too many resources the employment situation was getting worse after the Carlista wars. The conservative Cánovas and the liberal Sagasta alternated as Prime minister until 1905. Sagasta died of a heart attack and in 1906 Cánovas was assasinated. Spain was politically adrift. This was until the only decent dictator of the 20th century arrived on the scene. Miguel Primo de Rivera.
All very interesting Nick but all you are doing is telling us how much you know about Spanish history prior to the Civil war. The subject being the result of the 1937 fracus and outside aid. The Russian aid for the people that were fighting was available but bitsy, as was many of the volunteers from all over the world fervant red supporters often with no military training at all,some never having fired a gun in their lives.As far as the opposition was concerned,With the German backing on the ground and even more so in the air (great training for the Stukas and other German bombers) there could be only one result eventually. lcm1
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