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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #46  
Old 15 Aug 13, 00:11
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The Powhatans and Nansemonds were friendly with John Smith. Pocahontas was a Powhatan. Her father was their chief. So I agree with Squanto and the above mentioned.
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  #47  
Old 15 Aug 13, 02:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
What Woodland tribes were not warlike? If there were any that seriously were not, they wouldn't last too long.
The eastern tribes were not as warlike as the western tribes; they didn't have to be -- resources were a-plenty and so they tended to settle more and the competition for hunting grounds and such was not as great because they also cultivated the land for food. The western tribes, on the other hand, lived on barren plains, didn't cultivate the land, and had to follow the same animal herds. I've had Native Americans describe these things to me themselves.

The eastern tribes tended to band together more often, too, so you get organizations like the Iroquois Confederacy, which even took in tribes from the coast that had been pushed inland by European settlers.

That's not to say there weren't wars (the Iroquois-Huron mourning wars are legendary), and archaeology shows there certainly were tribes wiped out before the Europeans ever set sights on this continent. However, they were well-matched and therefore well-balanced before the Europeans arrived.

So I think this:

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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
What is usually overlooked, misunderstood or purposely ignored is that the various Indian tribes east of the Mississippi were usually out for war and glory, as they understood it and were just as blood-thirsty as any Europeans they encountered.
is a bit unfair to say, and way out of whack to assert as a generalization.
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  #48  
Old 15 Aug 13, 04:33
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Anyway, I'm going to throw my lot in with Cristobal Colombo.

Not so much because of what he did, but because he started the first wave of modern immigration to this continent and because he's come to sybmolize the controversial and complex nature of European-style conquest. America is still built upon idealism, gold, and firepower.
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  #49  
Old 15 Aug 13, 07:05
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Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I mentioned several earlier... and yes.... as I also mentioned they did not last long. Have you taken the time to study any native americans from the mid-atlantic states?

Than by your own reasoning there are no wars of annihilation unless the last man standing commits suicide.... total annihilation.
I merely gave you a definition of what a war of annihilation was/is. And you were given the difference between destruction and annihilation.

Seems to me you're going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

And, yes, I've studied Indians in North America both Woodland and Plains. I've also taught US history, which includes the Indians as well as who did what to whom.

Sincerely,
M
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  #50  
Old 15 Aug 13, 07:09
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Originally Posted by revwarheart View Post
The eastern tribes were not as warlike as the western tribes; they didn't have to be -- resources were a-plenty and so they tended to settle more and the competition for hunting grounds and such was not as great because they also cultivated the land for food. The western tribes, on the other hand, lived on barren plains, didn't cultivate the land, and had to follow the same animal herds. I've had Native Americans describe these things to me themselves.

The eastern tribes tended to band together more often, too, so you get organizations like the Iroquois Confederacy, which even took in tribes from the coast that had been pushed inland by European settlers.

That's not to say there weren't wars (the Iroquois-Huron mourning wars are legendary), and archaeology shows there certainly were tribes wiped out before the Europeans ever set sights on this continent. However, they were well-matched and therefore well-balanced before the Europeans arrived.

So I think this:

is a bit unfair to say, and way out of whack to assert as a generalization.
Your assessment of the warlike qualities of the eastern Woodland Indians is just a little benign. They could have taught the Plains Indians how to wage war. For decades the French and Indians raiding out of Canada was a constant threat to the English colonies in new England and New York. The fighting and raiding was savage and the Indians used torture on captives for sport. The eastern Indians were never benign and generally speaking they picked sides in the wars that occurred in North America between the French and the English.

You might want to do some research and reassess your ideas.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 15 Aug 13, 10:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
I merely gave you a definition of what a war of annihilation was/is. And you were given the difference between destruction and annihilation.

Seems to me you're going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

And, yes, I've studied Indians in North America both Woodland and Plains. I've also taught US history, which includes the Indians as well as who did what to whom.

Sincerely,
M
That's fine. What I find to be ridiculous is that you lump all Native American into one category (as warlike) that is just false. To prove your point you speculate on what may have happened prior to 1600. You teach history? You might want to do some research into the subject.
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  #52  
Old 15 Aug 13, 10:48
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I'd have to pick George Washington as the real father of America because he was the glue that held the nation together.
I would also have to say that the Woodlands Indians were a War like people.
The Ojibway from the Great Lakes Region where I live had been at war with the Iroquois & Dakota for eons before European contact.
Etienne Brule was tortured and eaten probably flayed alive however this practice did exist in Europe prior to this time.
Then there were those infamous (Dogs of War) used by Columbus & the Spanish.
Mans inhumanity to his fellow man has a very long...long history and it's not over!
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  #53  
Old 15 Aug 13, 12:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Your assessment of the warlike qualities of the eastern Woodland Indians is just a little benign. They could have taught the Plains Indians how to wage war. For decades the French and Indians raiding out of Canada was a constant threat to the English colonies in new England and New York. The fighting and raiding was savage and the Indians used torture on captives for sport. The eastern Indians were never benign and generally speaking they picked sides in the wars that occurred in North America between the French and the English.

You might want to do some research and reassess your ideas.

Sincerely,
M
You seem to focus on European-Indian wars; post-contact is hardly to be trusted in terms of assuming what life was like here for the thousands of years before Europeans arrived. And, after my mentioning mourning wars, talking with Native Americans themselves, and archaeology, I'm wondering how you can assume I haven't done any research?

I live in New York, the seat of the Iroquois Confederacy. I've worked as an archaeologist on Oneida and Mohawk lands. I know the fate of the Adirondacks and Laurentians. I also know very much about the Native-European raids along the Canadian border, have seen the monuments to the dead in places like Deerfield, Mass., which was known for the Native raids, and have read French and British accounts of torture.

Once again, though, a lot of the accounts of torture must be taken with a grain of salt because they were written by Europeans after those people posed the greatest threat to the Native Americans' lands and ways of life, and as you say, the Europeans weren't much better themselves. War is part of every culture; you can't say all cultures are warlike because of that. The eastern tribes didn't have to be warlike because they faced few threats before the Europeans arrived; that doesn't mean they didn't go to war, as I said before. They were not in a permanent state of war, and having wars now and then and fighting along territory borders hardly makes a culture "warlike". But once the Europeans came -- especially the British with their aggressive land clearing -- with their firearms and their diseases, there was a very real and massive threat to the eastern tribes, and so of course they would become more aggressive, more warlike.
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  #54  
Old 15 Aug 13, 12:39
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Your assessment of the warlike qualities of the eastern Woodland Indians is just a little benign. They could have taught the Plains Indians how to wage war.
Some Plains Indians I've talked to said they were resentful of the eastern tribes, said "If only they had put up more of a fight in the beginning!"
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  #55  
Old 15 Aug 13, 13:53
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I would say Robert Morris should be one of the founding fathers. Its a shame that he is only a footnote in history. He is pretty much the financier of the Evolution, found pretty much the USA banking system and signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution .
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Old 15 Aug 13, 15:15
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Originally Posted by revwarheart View Post
Some Plains Indians I've talked to said they were resentful of the eastern tribes, said "If only they had put up more of a fight in the beginning!"
Yes I've heard that before here too from both the Ojibwa and Sioux @ French Man's Head near Sioux Lookout was named so because a French fur trader dared to trade for muskets with the Sioux.
His head was placed on a pole near that fort much like Count Dracula did in early European history.
There is also a legend surrounding Princess Green Mantle and Kakabeka Falls that pretty much sums it up here.
The Copper Mines @ Isle Royale that Etienne Brule discovered in 1619 were a hot bed of excitement worth fighting for no doubt!
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Old 15 Aug 13, 19:44
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Correct-the US is a secular nation, with a secular government, founded on secular principles. Unfortunately today, the combination term (which I haven't really figured out what it means yet) of 'secular progressive' has been introduced as a derogatory term instead of the older 'liberal.'

George Washington being termed the Father of Our Country is not a misnomer, nor is it incorrect. He was the one-indispensable man at the founding and it was he, and the Continental Army he founded, organized, commanded and led, that won the Revolution. Without him, the Revolution would not have succeeded. And that also goes for the Constitutional Convention-and he was asked to attend and be the president of the Convention-he didn't look to be it.

He also agreed to become the first president, and Article II of the Constitution was written with Washington definitely in mind to be the first president.

Sincerely,
M
It's an interesting point,though, Messena. While ,undoubtedly, the USA is officially founded upon secular principles hasn't there always been quite a vibrant Christian sub-text, from declarations such as "In God We Trust" to a sometimes crusading attitude to make the world better, perhaps inherited from the puritans ?
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Old 15 Aug 13, 21:22
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It's an interesting point,though, Messena. While ,undoubtedly, the USA is officially founded upon secular principles hasn't there always been quite a vibrant Christian sub-text, from declarations such as "In God We Trust" to a sometimes crusading attitude to make the world better, perhaps inherited from the puritans ?
Belgrave,
IMO I think you have a pretty good idea of the situation. I might add that they were men of the times, and were being proactive about the Protestant/Catholic schism that had launched so many wars in their history. I suspect the Jewish pogroms were also in the back of their minds. I agree that there were secular men in the room, but like ignoring slavery, I believe they were trying their best to get the best product possible with most of the glaring potholes covered.
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Old 16 Aug 13, 01:00
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I agree that there were secular men in the room, but like ignoring slavery, I believe they were trying their best to get the best product possible with most of the glaring potholes covered.
With all due respect, one could very easily argue the opposite -- there were some religious men in the room, and the secular men were appeasing them with a few vague references to religion or God -- usually not by name, mind you -- in the political documents.

The majority of those in the Second Continental Congress were professional politicians, lawmen, merchants or gentry-farmers. Fewer than a handful were trained or by trade clergymen. (Personally, judging by the fervently religious people I know today, if the founders had been more inclined to religion, I believe there would have been many more references to God and language of praise built into our formative documents. For the most part, this is noticeably lacking.)

And while we can say "religion was a big part of the time period," do not forget that this was the height of secular humanism coming out of the Enlightenment and that the revolution occurred long after the First Great Awakening, and before the Second Great Awakening -- the two periods of greatest religious fervor in 18th century America -- so they can't be said to have had a great direct influence on the founders.
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Old 16 Aug 13, 12:22
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With all due respect, one could very easily argue the opposite -- there were some religious men in the room, and the secular men were appeasing them with a few vague references to religion or God -- usually not by name, mind you -- in the political documents.

The majority of those in the Second Continental Congress were professional politicians, lawmen, merchants or gentry-farmers. Fewer than a handful were trained or by trade clergymen. (Personally, judging by the fervently religious people I know today, if the founders had been more inclined to religion, I believe there would have been many more references to God and language of praise built into our formative documents. For the most part, this is noticeably lacking.)

And while we can say "religion was a big part of the time period," do not forget that this was the height of secular humanism coming out of the Enlightenment and that the revolution occurred long after the First Great Awakening, and before the Second Great Awakening -- the two periods of greatest religious fervor in 18th century America -- so they can't be said to have had a great direct influence on the founders.
Well written.
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