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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #31  
Old 20 Jun 13, 21:46
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I know this isn't probably what you want and I'll probably pay "HELL" for saying so, but GOD is the Father of America and when you get down to it the whole world.

*Stands ready for the tomatoes and rotten eggs to be thrown*

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  #32  
Old 13 Aug 13, 01:28
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Kiliaen van Rensselaer, first director of the Dutch West Indian Company, the most powerful supporter of the Charter of Freedoms and Exemptions, the most successful patroon of New Amsterdam, the only patroon that was recognized through out the Dutch, British and American Revolution and the creation of the US, surviving until the Rent Riots of 1840s. Not bad for a guy who started as a jewelers apprentice.
Rensselear Manor included Fort Orange and most central New York and all of what is now Albany NY. Originally called Beverwijck, or beaver trap. Dutch settlers were allowed passage to the new world and property tax free for ten years.
It was Rensselaer who financed Henry Hudson's explorations. Rensselaer and his descendents have been instrumental in the shaping of the US since 1620, I doubt any other single family has had the impact on any nation as the Rensselaer family has had on the formation of the US.
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute was founded by Stephen Van Rensselaer the eight patroon of the Rensselaer Manor in 1824, on his passing the estate was worth 68 million dollars.
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  #33  
Old 13 Aug 13, 04:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Tallmadge View Post
I know this isn't probably what you want and I'll probably pay "HELL" for saying so, but GOD is the Father of America and when you get down to it the whole world.

*Stands ready for the tomatoes and rotten eggs to be thrown*

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Who's God, which god? NA had/have god's.
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  #34  
Old 13 Aug 13, 13:46
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I still go with George Washington.

He had the opportunity for kingship or lifetime presidency and rejected them.

He faced some of the early tensions between strong central governance and states rights claims during the Whiskey Rebellion.

He accepted a reasonable equal balance of powers with the courts and Congress.

Despite other good philosophical, military, political etc. candidates, Washington was in the right place at the right time.
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  #35  
Old 14 Aug 13, 10:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
I still go with George Washington.

He had the opportunity for kingship or lifetime presidency and rejected them.

He faced some of the early tensions between strong central governance and states rights claims during the Whiskey Rebellion.

He accepted a reasonable equal balance of powers with the courts and Congress.

Despite other good philosophical, military, political etc. candidates, Washington was in the right place at the right time.
I have to agree, however, there are many people who played major roles along the way to Washington. Which is why I picked Van Rensselaer. Google him. Probably 80% or more of the Dutch and German settlers in the Mohawk valley and on Long Island sailed from Europe under contract to him, on ships he either owned or contracted. They were organized into the first militias, these settlements reached deep into the frontier of New York.
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  #36  
Old 14 Aug 13, 11:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
Didn't the Founding Fathers openly admit that some points of the constitution were every much inspired by the Iroquois, who lso had a sort of federal structure?

And regarding the Indians, I take umbrage to calling THE Indians savage and vicious. Sure some where, but so where some white people. The Indians were many different tribes, nations and people, mixing them all together is as wrong with them as it is with all other people. Again, sure some tribes were bloody vicious and savage, but if you look at others, you may well find some that were as civilized as the best of Europe.
I recall some native americans were friendly toward the whites.... up until the point were screwed over by them.
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  #37  
Old 14 Aug 13, 12:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Tallmadge View Post
I know this isn't probably what you want and I'll probably pay "HELL" for saying so, but GOD is the Father of America and when you get down to it the whole world.
Weren't you lot founded on secular principles?

And was god on the side of the natives, or did they do something to **** him off around the late 1400's?

But to get back to the main point:

Success Has Many Fathers Failure Is An Orphan.

The US had many fathers and great men (and woman) to get it where it is. No man was Hercules, but all stood on his shoulders.
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  #38  
Old 14 Aug 13, 12:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan M View Post
Which ones? Indian tribes, I mean.

And if you're talking about the 17th Century, which were the civilized nations of Europe? During the 30 Years War, the other wars of the Reformation and the Spanish (and other nation's) Inquisition, there was precious little civility in Europe being practiced at the time. (But I digress.)

I daresay that the early explorers and colonists found a very savage and primitive people when they arrived, from the Aztecs to the Athabaskans. To say that the Europeans were just as savage does not refute this statement. Neither does saying that some tribes, a small minority, did not fit this general description.

But getting back to the very first question of this thread: No, I don't think that Squanto can be considered to the real Father of America. Even if everyone of the Pilgrim settlers had perished that winter, more would still have followed. There was just too much wealth in the new lands for the Europeans to ignore.

Finally, and I could be wrong on this point because it's been so long since I've studied American history, but weren't the founding principles based upon those being espoused by John Locke? The rights of man, of all men, etc? As I say, it's been a while.

Cheers,
Dan.
The Delaware or Nanticoke? The Sasquesahannocks seemed to be friendly to John Smith.
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  #39  
Old 14 Aug 13, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
Weren't you lot founded on secular principles?

And was god on the side of the natives, or did they do something to **** him off around the late 1400's?

But to get back to the main point:

Success Has Many Fathers Failure Is An Orphan.

The US had many fathers and great men (and woman) to get it where it is. No man was Hercules, but all stood on his shoulders.
Correct-the US is a secular nation, with a secular government, founded on secular principles. Unfortunately today, the combination term (which I haven't really figured out what it means yet) of 'secular progressive' has been introduced as a derogatory term instead of the older 'liberal.'

George Washington being termed the Father of Our Country is not a misnomer, nor is it incorrect. He was the one-indispensable man at the founding and it was he, and the Continental Army he founded, organized, commanded and led, that won the Revolution. Without him, the Revolution would not have succeeded. And that also goes for the Constitutional Convention-and he was asked to attend and be the president of the Convention-he didn't look to be it.

He also agreed to become the first president, and Article II of the Constitution was written with Washington definitely in mind to be the first president.

Sincerely,
M
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  #40  
Old 14 Aug 13, 12:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I recall some native americans were friendly toward the whites.... up until the point were screwed over by them.
What is usually overlooked, misunderstood or purposely ignored is that the various Indian tribes east of the Mississippi were usually out for war and glory, as they understood it and were just as blood-thirsty as any Europeans they encountered. The smarter ones allied themselves with either the British or the French, and some, such as the Stockbridge, allied themselves with the Americans in the Revolution.

So the idea of who 'screwed over' whom is arguable to a very large degree, especially if you lived on the frontier up to at least the end of the War of 1812.

Sincerely,
M
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  #41  
Old 14 Aug 13, 13:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
What is usually overlooked, misunderstood or purposely ignored is that the various Indian tribes east of the Mississippi were usually out for war and glory, as they understood it and were just as blood-thirsty as any Europeans they encountered. The smarter ones allied themselves with either the British or the French, and some, such as the Stockbridge, allied themselves with the Americans in the Revolution.

So the idea of who 'screwed over' whom is arguable to a very large degree, especially if you lived on the frontier up to at least the end of the War of 1812.

Sincerely,
M
I can only speak for the tribes that I studied and most if not all were screwed over. Generally, the first encounters were friendly... as noted in the journals of the period. By the time of the Revolution those tribes that I mentioned had already been pushed off their lands and many had been reduced in numbers. Because their strength had been reduced they had little chance of becoming allied with anyone.
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  #42  
Old 14 Aug 13, 14:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I can only speak for the tribes that I studied and most if not all were screwed over. Generally, the first encounters were friendly... as noted in the journals of the period. By the time of the Revolution those tribes that I mentioned had already been pushed off their lands and many had been reduced in numbers. Because their strength had been reduced they had little chance of becoming allied with anyone.
But the point is, which you missed, is that the Indians had been doing that to each other for decades if not centuries before any Europeans showed up. And their wars were wars of annihilation and we'll never know how many tribes were destroyed by other Indians before 1600.

Sincerely,
M
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  #43  
Old 14 Aug 13, 16:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
But the point is, which you missed, is that the Indians had been doing that to each other for decades if not centuries before any Europeans showed up. And their wars were wars of annihilation and we'll never know how many tribes were destroyed by other Indians before 1600.

Sincerely,
M
The point that you missed is that many in fact were not war like unless provoked and were no more so than their white cousins. What wars are not of annihilation... the European variety?
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  #44  
Old 14 Aug 13, 21:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
The point that you missed is that many in fact were not war like unless provoked and were no more so than their white cousins. What wars are not of annihilation... the European variety?
What Woodland tribes were not warlike? If there were any that seriously were not, they wouldn't last too long.

Do you know what a war of annihilation is? It's where everyone is killed, such as those waged by Genghis Khan. I believe you're confusing 'destruction' with 'annihilation.' Regarding warfare, they are not the same thing.

For example, both Germany and Japan were destroyed in War II, but those two nations were not annihilated.

Sincerely,
M
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  #45  
Old 14 Aug 13, 22:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
What Woodland tribes were not warlike? If there were any that seriously were not, they wouldn't last too long.
I mentioned several earlier... and yes.... as I also mentioned they did not last long. Have you taken the time to study any native americans from the mid-atlantic states?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Do you know what a war of annihilation is? It's where everyone is killed, such as those waged by Genghis Khan. I believe you're confusing 'destruction' with 'annihilation.' Regarding warfare, they are not the same thing.

For example, both Germany and Japan were destroyed in War II, but those two nations were not annihilated.

Sincerely,
M
Than by your own reasoning there are no wars of annihilation unless the last man standing commits suicide.... total annihilation.
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