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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #16  
Old 11 May 13, 09:04
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Excellent point.

Thomas Paine came somewhat late to the game. And he wasn't part of the Continental Congress who put together the Declaration of Independence either.

There are others that are usually left out-those that help Washington organize, command, and lead the Continental Army through eight years of war and finally gain independence from Great Britain. No other American army has suffered so much or gained so much.

Sincerely,
M
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  #17  
Old 12 May 13, 13:00
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America had many fathers, and among them have to be Etienne Brule and Alexandre Mackenzie, not to neglect Pierre Radisson. You have to wonder just how many mixed Amerindian progeny they left in their wakes on the way west.
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  #18  
Old 13 May 13, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Anthrax View Post
It goes back way further than that. You should check out the writing of James Fenimore Cooper, considered one of the first great American writers. He was one of the first writers to be sympathetic to the Native American cause when he wrote his novel The Pioneers and The Leatherstocking Tales in 1823 and The Last of the Mohicans in 1826. Also check out the poems of Lydia Howard Huntley Sigourney written in the early 1800s, also the writing of Catharine Maria Sedgwick around the same timeframe. Though they and other American writers helped give rise to the idea of the Noble Savage in literature it was Francois-Rene de Chateaubriand that started it in 1801 with Atala

Good God, who knew my American Lit class was going to come in handy?
And Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Noble Savage.
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  #19  
Old 13 May 13, 11:55
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Its interesting to see how Native American writers protray Squanto, Saquewa (sp), and others of their ilk whose labors greatly aided the colonists and explorers.
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Old 14 May 13, 07:45
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Old 14 May 13, 08:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrax View Post
It goes back way further than that. You should check out the writing of James Fenimore Cooper, considered one of the first great American writers. He was one of the first writers to be sympathetic to the Native American cause when he wrote his novel The Pioneers and The Leatherstocking Tales in 1823 and The Last of the Mohicans in 1826. Also check out the poems of Lydia Howard Huntley Sigourney written in the early 1800s, also the writing of Catharine Maria Sedgwick around the same timeframe. Though they and other American writers helped give rise to the idea of the Noble Savage in literature it was Francois-Rene de Chateaubriand that started it in 1801 with Atala

Good God, who knew my American Lit class was going to come in handy?
Not to dis your lit class but the actual concept of "the noble savage" is much older, it dates back to the european religious wars, when shocked and amazed by their own brutality, Europeans began idealizing "native" values of various people, who they envisioned as fighting for personal reasons or out of necessity, as opposed to the Europeans who were butchering eachother in droves over minor religious differences.

I'd have to check, but I'm fairly sure it can be dated back to the 16th century and likely migrated to the americas with the first colonists.
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  #22  
Old 14 May 13, 22:24
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Quote:
likely migrated to the americas with the first colonists.
I seriously doubt that. The early colonists were simply too close to the realities of Indian warfare to cast them as 'noble'.
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  #23  
Old 15 May 13, 03:40
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Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
I seriously doubt that. The early colonists were simply too close to the realities of Indian warfare to cast them as 'noble'.
But I'm fairly sure they left Europe with visions of unspoiled natural beauty, untold riches and naked women

Check out this quote, Bartolome de las Casas, 1552.

Quote:
(...)
Now this infinite multitude of Men are by the Creation of God innocently simple, altogether void of and averse to all manner of Craft, Subtlety and Malice, and most Obedient and Loyal Subjects to their Native Sovereigns; and behave themselves very patiently, sumissively and quietly towards the Spaniards, to whom they are subservient and subject; so that finally they live without the least thirst after revenge, laying aside all litigiousness, Commotion and hatred.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20321/pg20321.html
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  #24  
Old 15 May 13, 12:01
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Gerry, regarding Don Bartolome: The document was written as a lawyer would argue for the benefit of his client. He was advocating for a more humane treatment of the Indians, and everything in that statement, as a generality, is true. though the "devoid of..." bit is simplistic to the extreme. But then, it is a statement presented in the spirit of amelioration to gain the Court's sympathy (which it did).

Granted, de las Casas was a European, but can't you find anything similar written by Northern European colonists of what is now the U.S. from 1607 until. let's say, 1758? I suspect none but the educated, such as Prescott (and Hawthorne and Cooper), were familiar with de las Casas at the time the Leatherstocking Tales were published.
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  #25  
Old 15 May 13, 19:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
I don't think he did. I believe it was mostly a disaffected, hubris consumed, atheistic British subject named Thomas Paine who later went mad.

He was sort of an early Christopher Hitchens.
Thomas Paine wasn't an Atheist, he was a Deist. He believed in God, he just didn't believe in a Messiah. Hence his denunciation of Christ.

He also believed that all organized religion was wrong, which is a particularly dangerous thing to say in a country with a State approved religion, like England. He left that country for America one step ahead of the torch wielding villagers.

I do like your comparison of Paine to Christopher Hitchens however. We need people like that...just to keep the rest of us honest.

Cheers,
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Old 16 May 13, 04:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Gerry, regarding Don Bartolome: The document was written as a lawyer would argue for the benefit of his client. He was advocating for a more humane treatment of the Indians, and everything in that statement, as a generality, is true. though the "devoid of..." bit is simplistic to the extreme. But then, it is a statement presented in the spirit of amelioration to gain the Court's sympathy (which it did).

Granted, de las Casas was a European, but can't you find anything similar written by Northern European colonists of what is now the U.S. from 1607 until. let's say, 1758? I suspect none but the educated, such as Prescott (and Hawthorne and Cooper), were familiar with de las Casas at the time the Leatherstocking Tales were published.
Not sure, I'm more familiar with the earlier Dutch/Spanish colonisation in the Caribbean and South America,

I do seem to remember posting a link to some sort of promotional pamphlet to draw colonists to the early English colonies in the north in a previous disussion, don't really remember if it mentioned the natives though, I'll look around and edit this post later.

In general however the northern territories were considered less hospitable, a more hostile perception of the natives may have been a big part of that, along with terrain, climate etc.

EDIT: While not exactly what I was looking for, this is interesting, chapter 1.5 in particular, also the bibliography.

I haven't read it all yet, I'll post it here for future reference.

Quote:
Those who wanted to present their new discoveries of the marvels of the new continent or those who wished to attract new settlers, traders or investors, generally tended to depict Indians in a more sympathetic way.

Moreover, “it was only a friendly Indian who could be a trading Indian” (Nash 38).

By contrast, those whose aim was to dominate or eliminate Native populations or to justify their enslavement or exploitation often tended to use more negative and hostile images of Indians (Jennings 47).
http://is.muni.cz/th/179860/pedf_m/R...ew_England.pdf
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  #27  
Old 17 May 13, 00:07
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Originally Posted by Dan M View Post
Thomas Paine wasn't an Atheist, he was a Deist.
I conceed the last point. Standing by disaffected and hubris consumed.
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Old 17 May 13, 04:25
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Didn't the Founding Fathers openly admit that some points of the constitution were every much inspired by the Iroquois, who lso had a sort of federal structure?

And regarding the Indians, I take umbrage to calling THE Indians savage and vicious. Sure some where, but so where some white people. The Indians were many different tribes, nations and people, mixing them all together is as wrong with them as it is with all other people. Again, sure some tribes were bloody vicious and savage, but if you look at others, you may well find some that were as civilized as the best of Europe.
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Old 17 May 13, 11:43
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... but if you look at others, you may well find some that were as civilized as the best of Europe.
Which ones? Indian tribes, I mean.

And if you're talking about the 17th Century, which were the civilized nations of Europe? During the 30 Years War, the other wars of the Reformation and the Spanish (and other nation's) Inquisition, there was precious little civility in Europe being practiced at the time. (But I digress.)

I daresay that the early explorers and colonists found a very savage and primitive people when they arrived, from the Aztecs to the Athabaskans. To say that the Europeans were just as savage does not refute this statement. Neither does saying that some tribes, a small minority, did not fit this general description.

But getting back to the very first question of this thread: No, I don't think that Squanto can be considered to the real Father of America. Even if everyone of the Pilgrim settlers had perished that winter, more would still have followed. There was just too much wealth in the new lands for the Europeans to ignore.

Finally, and I could be wrong on this point because it's been so long since I've studied American history, but weren't the founding principles based upon those being espoused by John Locke? The rights of man, of all men, etc? As I say, it's been a while.

Cheers,
Dan.
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Old 20 May 13, 10:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Not to dis your lit class but the actual concept of "the noble savage" is much older, it dates back to the european religious wars, when shocked and amazed by their own brutality, Europeans began idealizing "native" values of various people, who they envisioned as fighting for personal reasons or out of necessity, as opposed to the Europeans who were butchering eachother in droves over minor religious differences.

I'd have to check, but I'm fairly sure it can be dated back to the 16th century and likely migrated to the americas with the first colonists.
You are correct. However, I was more relating the concept to how it applied to the New World and when they started applying the concept to Native Americans.

If you read American Lit, you can see the shift and the evoluiton of it and when the idea of the Noble Savage began to appear in it.
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