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Modern Wars & Warfare General discussion on war. Topics that are not covered in any of our sub-forums below. .

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  #61  
Old 05 Apr 13, 21:28
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If 'we' have heroes what do 'they' have?....fanatics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post

What about them?
They have countries of their own. If they don't get the respect they deserve there, its a reflection on that nation, not my own.
And not necessarily a reflection on the Veterans themselves, either.
The Vietnamese would absolutely respect the vets who were on the winning side. Where on earth did you get the idea they wouldn't?

The Japanese and German situation is far more complicated, as of course they served a vile cause, they lost and the whole issue is tainted by the atrocities committed by servicemen and women (and yes of course there are those who would say the NVA and VC served a vile cause and committed atrocities as well).

However this does not mean the issue of German and Japanese heroes should not be raised and robustly discussed.

Sure as heck will be in any tute I’m running.
Hopefully there’ll be a full range of opinions:
from those saying ‘they’ were just like ‘us’
to those who say there was a fundamental difference between, for example, an American hero defending Wake island in Dec ’41 and….
a Japanese fanatic defending Tarawa in Nov 1943
or Iwo Jima in March ’45 (were they all heroes? Both garrisons died virtually to a man….... like the defenders of the Alamo).

Just gotta be careful how I handle it (if it does eventuate).

Regards lodestar
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  #62  
Old 05 Apr 13, 22:08
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Post Winners have heros. Losers? "Not so much..."

It's our mass media that makes heros what they are today.
Were it not for that, those people would be heros only within
their own tribe.

And "history is written by the winners".

Up here there's a cenotaph in every town, but not so in Germany.
I saw one in a village in Italy, but it was all 'heros' from WWI
(when they were amongst the 'winners'. I think).

.
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  #63  
Old 05 Apr 13, 22:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAGDPANTHER88 View Post
It's our mass media that makes heros what they are today.
Were it not for that, those people would be heros only within
their own tribe.

And "history is written by the winners".

Up here there's a cenotaph in every town, but not so in Germany.
I saw one in a village in Italy, but it was all 'heros' from WWI
(when they were amongst the 'winners'. I think).

.
'There are no winners in war,only survivors'. lcm1
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  #64  
Old 06 Apr 13, 01:10
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What about hostages shot during the ocupation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAGDPANTHER88 View Post
It's our mass media that makes heros what they are today.
Were it not for that, those people would be heros only within
their own tribe.

And "history is written by the winners".

Up here there's a cenotaph in every town, but not so in Germany.
I saw one in a village in Italy, but it was all 'heros' from WWI
(when they were amongst the 'winners'. I think).

.

Interesting that approach.

Like i said at the start of this thread

" I'll be in France next [this] year (hopefully) and hope to visit some graves at military cemeteries am wondering if I should raise the matter of the status of the ‘ole grand-uncles in WWI again?
My cousin was a teacher (including history) for about forty years and would find this discussion very interesting.

Also had relatives taken hostage and executed by German occupying forces (in retaliation for attacks in the area on German forces) as well as some killed in the resistance (armed with friggin’ hunting shotguns and those bloody awful stens according to family legend!) and never heard them called ‘heroes’."

Regards lodestar
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  #65  
Old 06 Apr 13, 01:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
'There are no winners in war,only survivors'. lcm1
Yeah. War is not about who's right, just who's left.
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  #66  
Old 05 Aug 13, 08:54
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This issue as a possible tute topic?

Have to come up with 20 - 30 tute topic suggestions by the end of 2015.
Fully developed and fleshed out.

Of which (if I know my old cronies) ten will be considered as possibly suitable.

Five of those ten will be gutted and ideas stolen from by cronies.
Remaining five will be accepted, then completely changed around.

I'll get to run one if I'm lucky the way I want.

Need some suggestions on suitable topics or sub-topics.

How would posters feel about this issue as a possible tute topic?

Too touchy? (lots of folks get pretty huffy when you tell 'em NOT EVERYONE ON OUR SIDE WAS A HERO!)

Been done before? (probably in some US progressive campuses but I'd put my own slant on it)

Too nuanced, complex and multi-layered for a modern student body? (sorry, couldn't help myself!!)

Regards lodestar
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  #67  
Old 05 Aug 13, 14:30
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I think that as a social history of WWII it might be interesting. The Good War by Studs Terkel would be a good resource, IMO. It was sure an eye=opener for me.
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  #68  
Old 05 Aug 13, 14:45
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Today, hero has become all but meaningless. I get a ladder and get some damn cat out of a tree, some twit would say I'm a hero.
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  #69  
Old 05 Aug 13, 19:48
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I to have a problem with the term "hero" being applied to an entire group of people. To me, it's always been an individual term based upon a particular action. Query: If once you have been considered a hero, do you retain that honor all your life?
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  #70  
Old 05 Aug 13, 20:49
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Interestingly enough, I have never met a vet that described him or herself as a hero. The only mention of the word 'hero' (and even then it's been pretty rare) that I've heard among vets is reserved for the people that didn't make it back.

I think that most veterans would view themselves (regardless of their roles) as having just done their job in a tough situation, trying their best to get themselves and their mates out in one piece while doing the job they were sent to do.

Regards,

Porty
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  #71  
Old 05 Aug 13, 21:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodestar View Post
Has democratization of World War histories made use of the term ‘heroes’ increasingly meaningless
Look maybe it’s just me.
Maybe the thought of going back to tertiary studies in a couple of years has simply made me deliberately look for provocative potential issues to ‘run’ with and to always question popular perceptions of issues
I stress, I (boy do I love that word …. ‘I’… it just kinda feels right whenever I use it….. bloody marvellous!) AM NOT repeat NOT posting this as a deliberate wind up or inflammatory diatribe.

But of late I’ve become increasingly uneasy with the widespread, almost arbitrary use of the term ‘heroes’ when the mass media (at least in the so-called ‘Anglosphere’) refers to the WWI and WWII ‘generations’.

It struck me most strongly in a recent visit to a local newsagency when I was pursuing the history magazine section.
There were three genealogical mags and each featured a cover and lead article on tracing family military. Each article had an emotive title along the lines of
“Tracing your World War II hero ancestors”, “Find your Great War family heroes” etc.

Other magazines peddle stuff something like: “The hero housewives of Bromley -by-Bow, how they faced butter rationing and working in factories”. Get the idea.

Anyone else find this stuff a bit galling?

Then there’s tabloid TV shows featuring segments that, for example in Australia, refer to anything whatsoever to do with World War II veterans as being about “our Aussie heroes”.


Now I’m not suggesting for a moment that we don’t honour men and women of the “greatest generation” (a very recent term by the way)
Just that the whole thing is getting out of hand,

Perhaps a personal anecdote may help illustrate what I’m getting at:
I remember clearly when visiting relatives in France some thirty years ago and we were discussing grand- uncles etc who had fallen in WWI.
I told them they surely must be really proud of the heroes.

They all looked a little aghast and responded, if I remember correctly with something like:
“Oh, hell no they weren’t heroes. Jean and Pierre just got machine gunned attacking some Kraut trench at Verdun.

Sebastian was killed when the Germans overran his platoon’s position in 1918.

A snipper got Etienne when he was cutting some bloody wire on the Somme.
Cripes just blokes doing their job. Nothing heroic!”

I was a little taken aback and didn’t pursue it but the story always stuck with me. Things have certainly changed and now days I suppose there would be an automatic assumption that these guys would be heroes.

What do other posters think?
Is the term ‘heroes’being overused?

Regards lodestar
Hi ls,no what has made the word heroes meaningless,is,the use of the word for popstars and sportsman and who are the villains of the piece? Why the media reporters of course!! lcm1
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  #72  
Old 05 Aug 13, 21:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porty View Post
Interestingly enough, I have never met a vet that described him or herself as a hero. The only mention of the word 'hero' (and even then it's been pretty rare) that I've heard among vets is reserved for the people that didn't make it back.

I think that most veterans would view themselves (regardless of their roles) as having just done their job in a tough situation, trying their best to get themselves and their mates out in one piece while doing the job they were sent to do.

Regards,

Porty
Absolutely correct Porty, lcm1
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  #73  
Old 07 Aug 13, 05:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Today, hero has become all but meaningless. I get a ladder and get some damn cat out of a tree, some twit would say I'm a hero.
Agree totally. In more recent years, the word has been over-used and misused to the point of absurdity.
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  #74  
Old 07 Aug 13, 06:23
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The problem is that people like him doing this are called heroic...

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  #75  
Old 07 Aug 13, 06:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Agree totally. In more recent years, the word has been over-used and misused to the point of absurdity.
Hi

I agree and I blame the lazy journalists & media outlets for its over use & misuse, in the scramble for sensational headlines.

However I also think that most people can differentiate between a war hero, a sporting hero & say a medical/scientific hero. We could have the same discussion about the misuse of the word Great or Brave in modern communications.

As stated earlier most people who are accorded the various accolades bestowed upon, are normally the first to state that there not.

Regards
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