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  #31  
Old 24 Dec 12, 22:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KICK View Post
the problem with "We" is when the person really is referring to "I".. and uses that word to add strength to their argument.

now if it was a guy like you referring to his service to his country
WE would be perfectly acceptable when referring to his unit

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Have you ever received mail that is full of I this and I that continuing on and on, there, my friend you are in contact with a self centered person! Give me a self efacing WE any time. lcm1
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  #32  
Old 25 Dec 12, 10:58
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
That's a good point, I think, and sometimes those who haven't served are either intimidated or in awe of those that do...
Interesting point. Upon meeting new people there are the compulsory exchanges of "what do you do"? When I tell them I'm in the Royal Canadian Navy there are always a good number of folks who start telling me why they never signed up. Why do they do that? It makes no difference to me and to be honest, I had most of the same 'problems' when I joined.
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  #33  
Old 25 Dec 12, 11:20
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I don't even like it when they say "Thank you"... but I smile, nod, and try to look pleased with them.
It seems to mean so much to some folks, and I can't be a jerk to people who are just trying to be nice.
I agree with this sentiment. Yes I served. Yes I went into a 'combat zone'. Yes we got mortared some. Yes it's more than would have happened if I stayed home. But no, I'm no hero. Especially not if people like my Grandfather and LCM1 don't consider themselves heroes. I was just some schmuck with a good memory that made sure the beans/bullets/bandaids got through. I didn't meet the enemy in close combat, or do anything heroic.

And I agree. Lionizing those that just do their jobs really does take away from those that went above and beyond. If you call me a hero, just like anyone else that did their job, how do you differentiate someone like Dakota Meyer who did so much more than was demanded of him?
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  #34  
Old 25 Dec 12, 21:10
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How attitudes towards 'heroism' vary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selous View Post
The trouble lies in gauging your activities/information - it is still necessary to be respectful when even making a valid point - no one would appreciate an out-of-the-blue lecture on why their granddad wasn't a hero. Odds are he did something requiring more fortitude, character and bravery than you or I from our safe vantage point at our computers would do.

Does it make him a hero? no it might 'just' makes him a soldier, and there's no dishonour in that. Not every man in khaki is Achilles, thankfully. Most are hard working sweats doing the duty they've committed themselves to and, even when acting above and beyond, will seek to evade anything more than a respectful thank you.
I think there may be a slight crossing of wires here.
I was the one, 30 years ago suggesting to my relatives that the ones who fell in either war were heroic.
They insisted these guys were just doing their jobs. Jobs that just happened to include, storming German trenches, holding their own positions in the face of attack, fighting with shotguns etc.

I’m not sure what they feel now.
My cousin is too well-educated and intelligent and taught history for far too long to let something as lightweight and frankly laughable as tabloid press opinion to sway her original position on something.
But who knows, she may have changed her opinion through simple passage of time?

Regards lodestar
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  #35  
Old 25 Dec 12, 21:14
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how do continental attitudes differ from those in the 'Angloshere'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selous View Post
Pin it on the British tabloids if you will but I think it's an observable trend across the western world, the citizens of the Great Republic do it just as much as the Sun if not more so.
Do we need The Sun to make this comic book BS tribute? not on your life.
Yes for sure, it’s a phenomenon in the Anglosphere (ie the English - speaking world) and as I said, to me it’s simply cringe-making and galling.

But I’m not so sure about continental Western Europe, where I’m pretty sure my relatives’ reaction 30 years ago (ie that just because someone died for the country they are not automatically a ‘hero’) was and still is probably more commonplace.

We need to bear in mind that it was on the continent and not in the UK or US that the actual ground fighting took place in Western Europe in both world wars. This may be part of the reason why they (my relatives as an example) have attitudes that are a less obsequious towards vets.

What about attitudes in the former Soviet bloc?
The war in the East being far more widespread, on a larger scale and the experience of actual fighting being so much more intense than the Anglo-American involvement may have resulted in very different attitudes developing?

The old SU made much about awarding medals like ‘Hero of the Soviet Union’ and both Soviets and the Poles have always had enormous focus on the incredible suffering and loss both states endured in WWII.

Given episodes like the siege of Leningrad, the Partisan war the Western USSR, the Warsaw Rebellion in 1944 and simply the scale of battle casualties I wonder if the use of the term ‘hero’ is probably more appropriate in relation to the vets who survived the war in the East?

I’d just love to get to Poland (my mother’s home) and see first hand what the attitude is there.

Regards lodestar
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  #36  
Old 25 Dec 12, 22:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I agree with this sentiment. Yes I served. Yes I went into a 'combat zone'. Yes we got mortared some. Yes it's more than would have happened if I stayed home. But no, I'm no hero. Especially not if people like my Grandfather and LCM1 don't consider themselves heroes. I was just some schmuck with a good memory that made sure the beans/bullets/bandaids got through. I didn't meet the enemy in close combat, or do anything heroic.

And I agree. Lionizing those that just do their jobs really does take away from those that went above and beyond. If you call me a hero, just like anyone else that did their job, how do you differentiate someone like Dakota Meyer who did so much more than was demanded of him?
Dakota Meyer, a glutton for punishment? (Black humour.)
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  #37  
Old 26 Dec 12, 15:21
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The term "hero" is entirely contextual and depends on the definition applied:

Definition of HERO-

a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage

Definition "a" does not apply here, "b" and "d" do in certain circumstances but I believe it is "c" that is what most people are growing tired of from the media at all levels and are mixing up with the other definitions.

A person who joins an all volunteer military force out of respect for their personal convictions or sense of moral obligation has shown noble qualities and if they are successful in becomming a Soldier, Sailor, etc. they have achieved something. Therefore, the term "hero" can by definition be applied.
It may seem like it cheapens the "hero" concept, but that is a matter of context and is really only subject to the level of respect that someone chooses to give that particular situation/person.
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  #38  
Old 26 Dec 12, 17:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
I think you are absolutely right ls, the big majority of us (in my opinion) were just ordinary blokes who through circumstances beyond our control found ourselves in khaki and being shot at! So we did (in the main) as we were told and reacted in an aggressive manner back at 'em. I certainly did not look upon myself as heroic and I do not think that the bulk of my mates did in regard to themselves either. I must admit that I am proud of my service in the Marines,as I am sure they are,but we were 18 year old conscripts when we landed in Normandy,how heroic do you reckon we felt? The word Hero has become far to common overall,even sportsmen get called heroes,now what the hell is heroic about kicking a football about? They get payed well enough for it, and that is one thing the PBI did not get. lcm1
Spot on. My relatives who were there all dismiss the idea that they were heroes as drama for the storytellers.

I had one uncle whose daughter sent his records to me after I expressed interest and his experiences came closest to heroics. He would tell us stories sometimes, particularly about December 1944 in the Ardennes, but he was always drinking a pint of whiskey while he did so and always ended the story in tears.
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  #39  
Old 26 Dec 12, 18:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desiree Clary View Post
If I am permitted to have an opinion, I would say that it is an overreaction to the treatment of the military during the Vietnam era. I read of many shocking things done to returning veterans by antiwar protesters, and I think that radical fringe, contrary to their intent, angered the vast majority of Americans at any rate, to go out off their way to be respectful to the military. My father speaks of sitting nest to an Army captain on an airplane flight in 1968, and on finding that he was just back form the Nam, of his pleasure and surprise when my father told him of how he admired him. My father was 4-F for vision, so he felt and feels strongly about this..
Your point is well taken, Desiree. My oldest son's girlfriend has her father going to Kuwait or Iraq twice a year and he said that knowing the today's service members have the support of the general public is abig difference from our parents' generation. Two of my oldest friends were in the post Vietnam Army and Coast Guard respectively in the late '70s early '80s and they are more anti military than the more numerous acquaintences who are current serving members.
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  #40  
Old 26 Dec 12, 20:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
Spot on. My relatives who were there all dismiss the idea that they were heroes as drama for the storytellers.

I had one uncle whose daughter sent his records to me after I expressed interest and his experiences came closest to heroics. He would tell us stories sometimes, particularly about December 1944 in the Ardennes, but he was always drinking a pint of whiskey while he did so and always ended the story in tears.
Hy CK,how you doing? Yes I know how he felt. I don't mind talking a little about it,but I have two versions.One of them includes some of the funny things with the rough spots sandpapered down a little,the other is when an old bootneck mate of mine visits and we sit in the easy chairs with a bottle of rum,chased down by a beer or two and talk easy with the occasional lump in the throat! We are getting fewer in numbers now aren't we,don't know what I would do if he 'Fell off the perch'? lcm1
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  #41  
Old 02 Apr 13, 01:19
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Want to use this threadstarter as tutorial topic but have issues

If I do go back to assist-tutoring I'd just love to raise this issue with the ‘young generation' as they seem so susceptible to having their minds and mind-sets shaped and manipulated by the sort of tabloid rubbish.

But how do I delicately suggest that their dear old grand-dad who drove a truck in Adelaide or manned a typewriter in Cairo or was on a tug/tender in port Melbourne in 1943, while no doubt a bloke doing his bit for kangaroo and country may not really be deserving to be called a hero.

Already had one old Uni crony from the ‘70’s dare me to do just that.

I had thought of retelling the family anecdote at the threadstarter but not sure how it would come across to an ‘modrn’ audience.

Any ideas?

Regards lodestar
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  #42  
Old 02 Apr 13, 04:06
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Wear body armour: the youth of today are not as respectful of the aged as they used to be.

Also, military history has progressed considerably beyond telling what the soldiers did. I suggest checking out a few essay compilations on WWI studies to see where it's moved to.
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  #43  
Old 02 Apr 13, 04:44
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I don't know what kind of module course design such a topic would crop up in, but have you thought, Lodestar, of consulting with the member of staff you will be assisting, on the matter?
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Old 02 Apr 13, 09:46
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Quote:
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Hy CK,how you doing? Yes I know how he felt. I don't mind talking a little about it,but I have two versions.One of them includes some of the funny things with the rough spots sandpapered down a little,the other is when an old bootneck mate of mine visits and we sit in the easy chairs with a bottle of rum,chased down by a beer or two and talk easy with the occasional lump in the throat! We are getting fewer in numbers now aren't we,don't know what I would do if he 'Fell off the perch'? lcm1
Poor lad has come down with a cancer of the bladder now, if he 'crosses the bar' I may give the RM association away for we two are the only ones left of the WW2 era. lcm1 .
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Old 02 Apr 13, 13:28
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Originally Posted by lodestar View Post
If I do go back to assist-tutoring I'd just love to raise this issue with the ‘young generation' as they seem so susceptible to having their minds and mind-sets shaped and manipulated by the sort of tabloid rubbish.

But how do I delicately suggest that their dear old grand-dad who drove a truck in Adelaide or manned a typewriter in Cairo or was on a tug/tender in port Melbourne in 1943, while no doubt a bloke doing his bit for kangaroo and country may not really be deserving to be called a hero.

Already had one old Uni crony from the ‘70’s dare me to do just that.

I had thought of retelling the family anecdote at the threadstarter but not sure how it would come across to an ‘modrn’ audience.

Any ideas?

Regards lodestar
Let them believe the hero version. The young are naive for only so long and they don't tend to think fondly of the ones who burst their bubbles.
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