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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #46  
Old 16 Nov 12, 18:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Despite claims to the contrary, the Israelis appear to have decided that mass murder is not a morally acceptable solution.
Baffling, isn't it?
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  #47  
Old 16 Nov 12, 19:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Despite claims to the contrary, the Israelis appear to have decided that mass murder is not a morally acceptable solution.
You know i was being sarcastic.

This will lead to a broader war, it has to be this way to settle the problem once and for all, it is either Israel obliterates her enemies absolutely or she in turn with be defeated. Israel can not afford any human sentiment to get in her way of victory and if genocide (or simmilar) has to used then so be it.
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  #48  
Old 16 Nov 12, 19:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer86g View Post
This is something I completely agree with. I personally don't consider ANYONE to be innocent.
Newborns? Infants? The elderly and infirm?

Quote:
Does this mean I advocate deliberately attacking civilians? No. But it means that civilians provide support in more ways than simply normal logistics. I'll continue to use Palestine as an example. If you notice the apartment next door being used as an arms store, or your courtyard being used as a missile base, then you must understand you have become a target. Any civilian casualties incurred by an Israeli attack are the fault of those that placed these targets in a civilian location. The location becomes a military location and the civilians should no longer be there. The blame is on Hamas, and the civilians that remain.
Many would agree with you there. When one stores weapons in a home, hospital, or mosque, they are turning it into a legitimate target. And the people who put them there are to blame for turning innocents into victims.

But any civilized military should do the best that it can within reason to minimize civilian casualties. Israel has show it is capable of precision strikes meant to minimize collateral damage and eliminate threats, but at the end of the day if the terrorists are launching rockets from neighborhoods, they are endangering the neighborhood and its inhabitants.

All sides have a moral responsibility to do what they can to limit the suffering of innocents and non-combatants withing reason. What is reasonable is up to debate, but most people accept that allowing the enemy to win for fear of harming a civilian is as ridiculous as deploying nuclear weapons when someone throws rocks at your soldiers.

Quote:
War is horrible, and it's supposed to be. These silly attempts we see at somehow making it less horrible are really only prolonging suffering on all sides. When involved in a war, the safety one's own side is all that really matters.
I disagree. By that logic we should have eradicated every German and Japanese from their nations to prevent them from beginning a war ever again - genocide now to save lives later. And by that same logic we should use overwhelming force no matter the threat: fire a mortar at us, we firebomb the city.

War is hell and collateral damage is to be expected, but I would feel ashamed of our military if they were only concerned with protecting their own. Thankfully our men and women have and will continue to risk their lives aiding civilians and seeking to protect innocent lives even on the "other side".
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  #49  
Old 16 Nov 12, 19:16
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Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
You know i was being sarcastic.

This will lead to a broader war, it has to be this way to settle the problem once and for all, it is either Israel obliterates her enemies absolutely or she in turn with be defeated. Israel can not afford any human sentiment to get in her way of victory and if genocide (or simmilar) has to used then so be it.
The second half of your reply disagrees with the first.

While logical in a Machiavellian sort of way it misses out on a number of points. A broader war is not in the interests of most of the participants. It might take some pressure off of Iran or Syria but neither Egypt nor Israel stand to gain anything. In fact the only parties who might gain would be Hamas and Hezbollah as they benefit from increased donations.

Hamas controls the timing of these events in Gaza just as Hezbollah controls them in Lebanon. From that you have to conclude that Hamas feels it has something to gain from being bombed in retaliation. The most likely reason I can come up with is to push the freshman administration in Cairo into making political common cause with Gaza that leads to ending the embargo from the Egyptian side. While this is not really in Egypt's best interests the new leadership may not be experienced enough to realize this until it is too late.
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  #50  
Old 16 Nov 12, 19:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Israel can not afford any human sentiment to get in her way of victory and if genocide (or simmilar) has to used then so be it.
The application of force alone, without moral support based on a spiritual concept, can never bring about the destruction of an idea or arrest the propagation of it, unless one is ready and able ruthlessly to exterminate the last upholders of that idea even to a man, and also wipe out any tradition which it may tend to leave behind.
- Mein Kampf, Chapter 5
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  #51  
Old 16 Nov 12, 19:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
The application of force alone, without moral support based on a spiritual concept, can never bring about the destruction of an idea or arrest the propagation of it, unless one is ready and able ruthlessly to exterminate the last upholders of that idea even to a man, and also wipe out any tradition which it may tend to leave behind.
- Mein Kampf, Chapter 5
if israel starts killing the Palestians inside Israel as a matter of policy you might have a point.

Otherwise it is war and unless both sides play by the same set of rules there are no rules.

was what occurred in WW2 on the allied side genocide or a military policy to end the war. I believe the latter so if Israel is forced to do the same thing then it is the fault of the Palestians.
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  #52  
Old 16 Nov 12, 20:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
Newborns? Infants? The elderly and infirm?
Sadly, yes. This is the harsh reality. We are animals. That's it.

Quote:
But any civilized military should do the best that it can within reason to minimize civilian casualties. Israel has show it is capable of precision strikes meant to minimize collateral damage and eliminate threats, but at the end of the day if the terrorists are launching rockets from neighborhoods, they are endangering the neighborhood and its inhabitants.
That it true. But also, at the end of the day, the purpose of a nation's military is to protect it's own population.


Quote:
I disagree. By that logic we should have eradicated every German and Japanese from their nations to prevent them from beginning a war ever again - genocide now to save lives later. And by that same logic we should use overwhelming force no matter the threat: fire a mortar at us, we firebomb the city.
You're taking it too far. You're argument paints everything black and white, but we live in a world of shades of grey. We didn't need to kill every German and Jap, just reduce them to a point where the threat will not return. We can say that Germany and Japan are much better off as a result.

Quote:
War is hell and collateral damage is to be expected, but I would feel ashamed of our military if they were only concerned with protecting their own. Thankfully our men and women have and will continue to risk their lives aiding civilians and seeking to protect innocent lives even on the "other side".
Our primary concern, in war, is to protect the homeland. That's it.

However, the conflicts we have engaged in since WW2, with few exceptions, are "complicated". We've engaged in "police actions" and "nation building" that hamper our forces. Unfortunately, our enemies are/were fighting wars.

BUT, this isn't about US forces. This is about Israel/Palestine. Israel MUST act to protect it's people first. The safety of any Palestinian is secondary. And I expect the same from the Palestinians.
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  #53  
Old 16 Nov 12, 20:30
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This operation is not gong to end well. The idea of taking out Hamas #2, which was probably planned before Romney's defeat in the USA election was a bad one. There is enough trouble in the Middle East with the Syrian Civil War going on that starting another war will make the situation blow up in everyone's faces. This has similarities to pre-WWI conditions. Close down the borders and set up the antimissiles.
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Old 16 Nov 12, 21:09
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Something about media coverage of conflict

Something about media coverage of conflict

http://honestreporting.com/exposed-p...turns-to-gaza/

Exposed: Pallywood Returns to Gaza

November 15, 2012 15:46 by Simon Plosker What happens when the cameras turn up at the scene of an airstrike in Gaza and there simply aren’t enough Palestinian dead and injured to produce dramatic footage that can be used against Israel in the international media? We’ve seen it before. Palestinians who appear to be injured or even dead for the benefit of the TV cameras turn out to be nothing of the sort once they are no longer the focus.
This is all the more so in Gaza, where Palestinian stringers are often filming in the absence of international news crews.


The example below is taken from a BBC interview on the targeted killing of Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari. During the interview , footage from Gaza is shown.



At 2:11 min in, a Palestinian in a beige jacket and black T-shirt, presumably injured in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike, is picked up and taken away. Yet at 2:44 min, the same Palestinian has staged a remarkable recovery.












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  #55  
Old 16 Nov 12, 21:33
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It's called propaganda and it's a viable tactic in any war, more so now in the internet age. Any side that does NOT use it, and all of them do, effectively will be at a disadvantage. Simple.

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Old 16 Nov 12, 21:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Engineer View Post
It's called propaganda and it's a viable tactic in any war, more so now in the internet age. Any side that does NOT use it, and all of them do, effectively will be at a disadvantage. Simple.

So you are saying that BBC in particular, and Main Stream Media
in general works for one side of this war ?

You are correct.
At least IDF are agree with you.
The picture from their web site was placed there long before the current escalation.



The article dated 11/11/2012.
I week before current escalation.

http://honestreporting.com/israel-un...estinians-die/
Israel Under Fire: Media Holds Off Until Palestinians Die

November 11, 2012 15:55 by Simon Plosker


Over the past 24 hours, Palestinian terrorists have fired some 70 rockets and mortars into Israel from Gaza, wounding three Israelis, causing damage to property and sending a million residents of the south into bomb shelters.
In fact, rockets have been fired at Israel on a regular basis. As of October 2012, over 800 rockets had been launched at Israel from Gaza since January 2012.
But what does it take for the media to sit up and take notice of the security situation emanating from Gaza?
  • Not the firing of an anti-tank missile at an IDF jeep on the Israeli side of the Gaza border on Saturday, which wounded four Israeli soldiers. This was picked up by wire services such as the AP, but not republished widely at all by other media outlets.
  • Not the blowing up of a massive tunnel from southern Gaza towards Israel by Palestinian terrorists on Thursday, also reported by AP but less so elsewhere.
  • And certainly not the aforementioned rocket barrages.
When it comes to the mainstream media, we see two trends at work:
1. If it bleeds, it leads: Unless Palestinians are killed or injured, it simply isn’t news. Of course, this skews the situation precisely because Israel has had to take measures to protect its civilians from rocket attacks. Bomb shelters, the Iron Dome anti-missile shield and the use of sirens to warn of attacks have all ensured that the civilian casualty figure remains mercifully low. But just because Israelis are not dying in tangible numbers, it does not diminish the seriousness of the situation and the suffering of the residents of Israel’s south.
In the latest example, several Palestinians have died and around 30 injured as a result of Israel’s actions against the terrorists. Only after this have the media bothered to report on the deteriorating situation.
2. It all started when Israel fired back: Thanks to the late pick-up of the story by the media, many headlines focus on the Israeli counter strikes and the Palestinian deaths rather than the Palestinian terrorism and rocket fire that have plagued Israel for such a considerable amount of time prior to this latest escalation in violence.
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  #57  
Old 16 Nov 12, 21:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS116 View Post
So you are saying that BBC in particular, and Main Stream Media
in general works for one side of this war ?


You are correct.
At least IDF are agree with you.
The picture from their web site was placed there long before the current escalation.



The article dated 11/11/2012.
I week before current escalation.

http://honestreporting.com/israel-un...estinians-die/
Israel Under Fire: Media Holds Off Until Palestinians Die

November 11, 2012 15:55 by Simon Plosker


Over the past 24 hours, Palestinian terrorists have fired some 70 rockets and mortars into Israel from Gaza, wounding three Israelis, causing damage to property and sending a million residents of the south into bomb shelters.
In fact, rockets have been fired at Israel on a regular basis. As of October 2012, over 800 rockets had been launched at Israel from Gaza since January 2012.
But what does it take for the media to sit up and take notice of the security situation emanating from Gaza?
  • Not the firing of an anti-tank missile at an IDF jeep on the Israeli side of the Gaza border on Saturday, which wounded four Israeli soldiers. This was picked up by wire services such as the AP, but not republished widely at all by other media outlets.
  • Not the blowing up of a massive tunnel from southern Gaza towards Israel by Palestinian terrorists on Thursday, also reported by AP but less so elsewhere.
  • And certainly not the aforementioned rocket barrages.
When it comes to the mainstream media, we see two trends at work:
1. If it bleeds, it leads: Unless Palestinians are killed or injured, it simply isn’t news. Of course, this skews the situation precisely because Israel has had to take measures to protect its civilians from rocket attacks. Bomb shelters, the Iron Dome anti-missile shield and the use of sirens to warn of attacks have all ensured that the civilian casualty figure remains mercifully low. But just because Israelis are not dying in tangible numbers, it does not diminish the seriousness of the situation and the suffering of the residents of Israel’s south.
In the latest example, several Palestinians have died and around 30 injured as a result of Israel’s actions against the terrorists. Only after this have the media bothered to report on the deteriorating situation.
2. It all started when Israel fired back: Thanks to the late pick-up of the story by the media, many headlines focus on the Israeli counter strikes and the Palestinian deaths rather than the Palestinian terrorism and rocket fire that have plagued Israel for such a considerable amount of time prior to this latest escalation in violence.
No, because we have no idea of the sequence or timing here. Was this a feed that they loaded put on the air quickly and showed it as they watched it also? You notice that there is a 30 minute gap before the guy shows up again.

I just posted about Propaganda, the clip you showed is also an example of that. Why do you think they edited? To put out the story they want. Both sides do it.

As to you second part, the media has been putting out stories every night about the Palestinians firing rockets into Israel. So that story is pretty much bull ****.
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Old 16 Nov 12, 22:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Engineer View Post
I just posted about Propaganda, the clip you showed is also an example of that. Why do you think they edited? To put out the story they want. Both sides do it.

As to you second part, the media has been putting out stories every night about the Palestinians firing rockets into Israel. So that story is pretty much bull ****.
Which both ?
BBC vs Israel ?

No, I was looking on BBC coverage.
Unless there is a escalation, or dead Palestinians,
they simply skip the story.

Another sample - an article in the

The Huffington Post | By Jack Mirkinson Posted: 11/15/2012 11:22 am EST Updated: 11/15/2012 5:44 pm EST



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...ct#postComment


No coverage of the previous week escalation.
Everything had started with Israeli air strike.




#################


Let me be clear.
Palestinian and Israeli propaganda is a fair game.
But MSM as voice of Palestinian propaganda is too much.
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Old 16 Nov 12, 22:17
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No, because we have no idea of the sequence or timing here. Was this a feed that they loaded put on the air quickly and showed it as they watched it also? You notice that there is a 30 minute gap before the guy shows up again.
Below is full version of BBC interview.
Watch it yourself.
The same minutes.

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Old 16 Nov 12, 23:12
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Real Name: John Rainey
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Saint Louis MO
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Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS116 View Post
Below is full version of BBC interview.
Watch it yourself.
The same minutes.

As I said, he flashes quickly on the screen. Did the BBC notice? I would not if I was not looking for it.

Were the injuries faked? Looks like it, sure.

Once again, I see no reason for them not to fake it. They are in a war and trying to win. Would you NOT do so? We do, why not them?
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