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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #31  
Old 16 Nov 12, 07:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Castro View Post
They believe death isn't even a minor problem for civilians: if they are good they go to heaven, if they are not they are better dead. It's a good way to completely avoid moral issues...
On a more practical level civilian deaths and injuries also mean a continued supply of recruits, supporters, funds and even if not direct supporters then an environment in which the opponent is the one seen negatively. That is usually a factor in insurgencies.
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  #32  
Old 16 Nov 12, 09:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Castro View Post
They believe death isn't even a minor problem for civilians: if they are good they go to heaven, if they are not they are better dead. It's a good way to completely avoid moral issues...
And it aids the Hamas cause whenever they can wave the bloody shirt of innocent civilian casualties in front of western media news cameras about what butchers the Israelis are.
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  #33  
Old 16 Nov 12, 09:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
On a more practical level civilian deaths and injuries also mean a continued supply of recruits, supporters, funds and even if not direct supporters then an environment in which the opponent is the one seen negatively. That is usually a factor in insurgencies.
This might be a time when this is different. Unless Eygpt makes Hamas backdown I see Israel maybe having a free hand in Gaza. ie less screaming about laws of war and such. If your enemy does not follow them then how can you folow them.
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  #34  
Old 16 Nov 12, 11:02
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ACG STAFF EDIT to remove quote of another member's personal attack.

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Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors . . . .

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators. . . . .

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad . . . .

World Zionism and Imperialist forces have been attempting, with smart moves and considered planning, to push the Arab countries, one after another, out of the circle of conflict with Zionism, in order, ultimately, to isolate the Palestinian People. Egypt has already been cast out of the conflict, to a very great extent through the treacherous Camp David Accords, and she has been trying to drag other countries into similar agreements in order to push them out of the circle of conflict. Hamas is calling upon the Arab and Islamic peoples to act seriously and tirelessly in order to frustrate that dreadful scheme and to make the masses aware of the danger of coping out of the circle of struggle with Zionism. Today it is Palestine and tomorrow it may be another country or other countries. For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there. . . . .

Hamas Charter, 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
On a more practical level civilian deaths and injuries also mean a continued supply of recruits, supporters, funds and even if not direct supporters then an environment in which the opponent is the one seen negatively. That is usually a factor in insurgencies.
So as a pragmatic consideration, you have no problem with Hamas siting their missile launchers alongside mosques and using the resulting casual as mere propaganda fodder? One would think -- logically -- that if the launchers were placed deliberately at such sites, then those who chose those sites are responsible for the resulting casualties, not those who had to eliminate them in order to protect their own people.

If one is thinking logically, of course.
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Last edited by Duncan; 17 Nov 12 at 16:05..
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  #35  
Old 16 Nov 12, 11:18
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
So what think you of Hamas? Would you classify them as -- how did you so eloquently put it -- "racist and genocidal prick[s]," as well?



So as a pragmatic consideration, you have no problem with Hamas siting their missile launchers alongside mosques and using the resulting casual as mere propaganda fodder? One would think -- logically -- that if the launchers were placed deliberately at such sites, then those who chose those sites are responsible for the resulting casualties, not those who had to eliminate them in order to protect their own people.

If one is thinking logically, of course.
Hamas are a bunch of murderous and fundamentalist thugs who I would be very glad to see the back of. The Hamas Charter is anti-semitic to the core and symptomatic of a warped ideology and mindset. If they advocate genocide then they are also genocidal pricks or whichever other insult you wish to add. And I would challenge you to find a single statement that I have made on this forum where I have supported their ideology or terrorism.

Why would you conclude that making a comment on the nature of responses to terrorism which can have positive effects in terms of support for insurgents/terrorists means having no problem with said activities? However, the actions of terrorists, insurgents, rebels and so on does not give the opposing force carte blanche to do what it wants in response. Or should the British army have levelled Republican areas of Northern Ireland everytime a bomb went off or an attack was launched. It was a comment on the overall situation - not a statement of support.

And yet no criticism for the person who advocated genocide in his post?
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Last edited by Sergio; 16 Nov 12 at 11:35..
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  #36  
Old 16 Nov 12, 12:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Hamas are a bunch of murderous and fundamentalist thugs who I would be very glad to see the back of. The Hamas Charter is anti-semitic to the core and symptomatic of a warped ideology and mindset. If they advocate genocide then they are also genocidal pricks or whichever other insult you wish to add. And I would challenge you to find a single statement that I have made on this forum where I have supported their ideology or terrorism.

Why would you conclude that making a comment on the nature of responses to terrorism which can have positive effects in terms of support for insurgents/terrorists means having no problem with said activities? However, the actions of terrorists, insurgents, rebels and so on does not give the opposing force carte blanche to do what it wants in response. Or should the British army have levelled Republican areas of Northern Ireland everytime a bomb went off or an attack was launched. It was a comment on the overall situation - not a statement of support.

And yet no criticism for the person who advocated genocide in his post?
It not genocide when you get wiped out because your side started a war. Otherwise the US and UK are guilty of genocide from WW2. Genocide is more about the goal. ie kill all palestians. vs killing Palestians until they decide they do not want to fight anymore. if it takes killing em all to achieve goal two then it not genocide.
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  #37  
Old 16 Nov 12, 13:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Hamas are a bunch of murderous and fundamentalist thugs who I would be very glad to see the back of. The Hamas Charter is anti-semitic to the core and symptomatic of a warped ideology and mindset. If they advocate genocide then they are also genocidal pricks or whichever other insult you wish to add. And I would challenge you to find a single statement that I have made on this forum where I have supported their ideology or terrorism.
Wow. That's a pretty direct and clear statement.

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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Why would you conclude that making a comment on the nature of responses to terrorism which can have positive effects in terms of support for insurgents/terrorists means having no problem with said activities? However, the actions of terrorists, insurgents, rebels and so on does not give the opposing force carte blanche to do what it wants in response. Or should the British army have levelled Republican areas of Northern Ireland everytime a bomb went off or an attack was launched.
In a word: yes. PIRA used people as shields because they allowed themselves to be used as shields -- "for the cause," don't you know. Likewise, thousands of Gazans have chosen to lie down with these Hamas dogs for the sole reason that they're not Jews. Therefore, they forfeit the right to be surprised when they get up with Hamas' fleas. Just because you take a swipe at me from behind your kid isn't going to stay my hand: I'm going to flatten you -- and anything that you've put in the way. The responsibility for the collateral damage lies with you, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
And yet no criticism for the person who advocated genocide in his post?
You've misunderstood: I'm a true anti-semite, in that I've come to loathe all who speak Semitic tongues. I can't stand native-Arabic speakers, and I feel the same way about native Hebrew-speakers -- but most especially those who insist on perpetuating this farce. Were it my call to make, I'd erect a giant fence around all of Israel/Palestine and let them all annihilate each other at their leisure. And any and all from the outside who want to "help" are out of their friggin' minds. They would be beaten about their heads with polo mallets.

Imagine fighting all of these years over a strip of sand that in the US would be used only as an atomic testing range. Morons.

But to call the one side "good" and the other "bad" is an insult to my intelligence. "It makes me very angry."
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  #38  
Old 16 Nov 12, 13:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbryan View Post
I see they're using alot of Iranian supplied rockets also. I can't wait until things in Iran start to explode, change shape and burn. Measure for measure..
This may be a preliminary to precisely that.
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Old 16 Nov 12, 13:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
If i were Israel i would sytematically obliterate every structure in Gaza razing the entire area and then eliminate any survivors and annexe Gaza permantly into the Israeli state.
You're advocating genocide?

Last edited by Glenn239; 16 Nov 12 at 13:29..
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  #40  
Old 16 Nov 12, 14:21
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You're advocating genocide?
no he is not unless your suggesting Gazians are a seperate race. just saying
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Old 16 Nov 12, 18:45
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[QUOTE=slick_miester;2395074]So what think you of Hamas? Would you classify them as -- how did you so eloquently put it -- "racist and genocidal prick[s]," as well?



So as a pragmatic consideration, you have no problem with Hamas siting their missile launchers alongside mosques and using the resulting casual as mere propaganda fodder? One would think -- logically -- that if the launchers were placed deliberately at such sites, then those who chose those sites are responsible for the resulting casualties, not those who had to eliminate them in order to protect their own people.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please, stop being an online dipstick.
Only cowards target women & children with weapons.
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  #42  
Old 16 Nov 12, 18:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craven View Post
no he is not unless your suggesting Gazians are a seperate race. just saying
Advocating genocide or mass murder is not tolerated. Advocating the systematic extermination of nearly two million men, women, and children counts.
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  #43  
Old 16 Nov 12, 18:52
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Quote:
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You're advocating genocide?
No! just an eradication of a problem that has bugged Israel.
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  #44  
Old 16 Nov 12, 18:55
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Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
No! just an eradication of a problem that has bugged Israel.
Despite claims to the contrary, the Israelis appear to have decided that mass murder is not a morally acceptable solution.
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Old 16 Nov 12, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Or should the British army have levelled Republican areas of Northern Ireland everytime a bomb went off or an attack was launched.
Sergio, Marc responded with this:

Quote:
In a word: yes. PIRA used people as shields because they allowed themselves to be used as shields -- "for the cause," don't you know. Likewise, thousands of Gazans have chosen to lie down with these Hamas dogs for the sole reason that they're not Jews. Therefore, they forfeit the right to be surprised when they get up with Hamas' fleas. Just because you take a swipe at me from behind your kid isn't going to stay my hand: I'm going to flatten you -- and anything that you've put in the way. The responsibility for the collateral damage lies with you, not me.
This is something I completely agree with. I personally don't consider ANYONE to be innocent. Does this mean I advocate deliberately attacking civilians? No. But it means that civilians provide support in more ways than simply normal logistics. I'll continue to use Palestine as an example. If you notice the apartment next door being used as an arms store, or your courtyard being used as a missile base, then you must understand you have become a target. Any civilian casualties incurred by an Israeli attack are the fault of those that placed these targets in a civilian location. The location becomes a military location and the civilians should no longer be there. The blame is on Hamas, and the civilians that remain.

War is horrible, and it's supposed to be. These silly attempts we see at somehow making it less horrible are really only prolonging suffering on all sides. When involved in a war, the safety one's own side is all that really matters.
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