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  #1  
Old 24 May 12, 09:03
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Exclamation Explosive bullets?

Hi!

There is always lots of blah blah on the fictional arena of "explosive" rifle bullets that we all know point towards exaggerations of soft-nosed or similar ammunition.

But then, I was wondering what they really talked about in reality.

In for example WWII Germans claimed Russians using explosive bullets and the Russian accused Germans of using them.

Then, out of the blue both really appear to have had them where Russians refers them to be "marking bullets" and Germans the "B" cartridge ammunition.

Now please show me some pics and specifications of these and what was their general effect.

Yours
Pappy
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  #2  
Old 24 May 12, 10:49
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Well Simo Häyhä got explosive bullet to his jaw in Winter war. Doctors managed to patch him up, but his jaw was deformed.
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  #3  
Old 25 May 12, 02:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy View Post
Hi!

There is always lots of blah blah on the fictional arena of "explosive" rifle bullets that we all know point towards exaggerations of soft-nosed or similar ammunition.

But then, I was wondering what they really talked about in reality.

In for example WWII Germans claimed Russians using explosive bullets and the Russian accused Germans of using them.

Then, out of the blue both really appear to have had them where Russians refers them to be "marking bullets" and Germans the "B" cartridge ammunition.

Now please show me some pics and specifications of these and what was their general effect.

Yours
Pappy
Which brings to mind the old fashioned 'Dum Dum' bullet. lcm1
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  #4  
Old 01 Jun 12, 08:37
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There are many bullets which are designed to expand or disintegrate violently when they hit the target but the smallest one that I'm aware of that actually has explosive in it is the Norwegian Raufoss round for the 50BMG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211
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  #5  
Old 01 Jun 12, 10:58
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Nothing particularly rare, though they would be used in aircraft MGs rather than in rifles. Still, in rifle caliber. It was the B-Geschoß, where B is for Beobachtung, observation. Its core contained both incendiary chemicals and a (tiny) amount of explosive. The point was that the firer - a pilot or other aircrewman - would be able to observe the point of impact of his burst. It was in standard 7.92X57 Mauser.
I don't know about the Soviets.
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  #6  
Old 01 Jun 12, 16:29
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This armed holy warrior appears to have experienced first hand the effects of an exploding bullet

On a serious note this picture was taken in North West Pakistan which has a flourising industry of home made firearms and predictable accidents.
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  #7  
Old 01 Jun 12, 16:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy View Post
Hi!

There is always lots of blah blah on the fictional arena of "explosive" rifle bullets that we all know point towards exaggerations of soft-nosed or similar ammunition.

But then, I was wondering what they really talked about in reality.

In for example WWII Germans claimed Russians using explosive bullets and the Russian accused Germans of using them.

Then, out of the blue both really appear to have had them where Russians refers them to be "marking bullets" and Germans the "B" cartridge ammunition.

Now please show me some pics and specifications of these and what was their general effect.

Yours
Pappy
There is a good deal of misunderstanding about explosive rounds, mostly based on the wounds a standard bullet can create if circumstances align. Any time a high velocity rifle bullet impacts a skull the effects can appear to be explosive. This is simply due to the energy levels involved and how they are tranferred to what is, fundamentally, a rigid container full of liquid and gel. Shoot a watermellon or milk jug with a 30-06 FMJ and look at the effects, you'll get the idea.

Even taking soft or polymer tip rounds out of the equation, many FMJ bullets are very frangible and break up easily so as to have many of the properties of a soft point. The difference, for example, between a West German 7.62x51 bullet and a U.S. made projectile of the same calliber can be extreme. There is video of the West German variety beginning to break up upon hitting a block of soap, while the U.S. made round is somewhat thicker in it's jacketing and therefore less prone to fragment.

In Viet Nam the 5.56 M16 round was sometimes noted to have "explosive" qualities when striking unarmored human targets at close range. Reports of massive tissue damage and exit wounds were common, in most cases considerably larger than 7.62x51 wound channels. When impacting at velocites of over 2900 FPS or so the bullet tended to break at the cannalure and all but disentegrate. The effects appeared, for all intents and purposes, to be explosive. Slow that same 5.56 bullet down to, say, 2600 feet per second and it punches neat little holes with very little disruption at all. The point is that velocity and bullet construction can make a huge differnece.

Bringing this back to WWII, I think every nation at one time or another accused it's enemies of employing "explosive" rounds. The fact is that one can parade what's left of a head which was shot by a high powered rifle at close range and claim it was destroyed by an exploisve bullet. That might even get some traction with those who don't know better. But the bottom line is a simple 30-06, 7.92 Mauser, .303 Brit, or 7.7 Arisaka FMJ can all but vaporize a skull at close range, there's no need to complicate things by trying to manufacture explosive rounds for general issue. Heck, even the 6.5 Italian Carcano, which is underpowerd comparatively, did quite a number on a very famous presidential head.
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Old 01 Jun 12, 16:59
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

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Old 01 Jun 12, 17:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Yeah, talk about a PC marketing mistake. The Black Talons were OK bullets, good but nothing exceptional. There were any number of other rounds out there which did exactly the same thing but were not named Black Talon nor were they coated with the eeeeeeevil black coating. Funny what people pick up on to categorize as good or bad, and it often has nothing to do with reality where firearms or ammunition are concerned.
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  #10  
Old 01 Jun 12, 17:13
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Nothing particularly rare, though they would be used in aircraft MGs rather than in rifles. Still, in rifle caliber. It was the B-Geschoß, where B is for Beobachtung, observation. Its core contained both incendiary chemicals and a (tiny) amount of explosive. The point was that the firer - a pilot or other aircrewman - would be able to observe the point of impact of his burst. It was in standard 7.92X57 Mauser.
I don't know about the Soviets.
I must agree with you here. I think all the commotion is caused by the cries of unfair when this type of ammunition was said to be used against human targets. This is apparently in contraventions with the Geneva Convention.
The so called notorious B Geschoss. However according to German sources
the Armour Piercing Incendary w/wo Tracer ammunitions used by the allies should be viewed in the same category. It would certainly not have been unheard of that these rounds were mixed with "normal" rounds in ammunition clips for (automatic) rifles or lmg ammuntion belts.

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  #11  
Old 01 Jun 12, 18:08
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In the U.S the term explosive bullets is often used for hunting bullets meant for thin skinned light boned game where the goal is not deep penetration but rapid and violent expansion with disintegration and rapid and complete energy transfer. The bullets themselves have no explosives within them. The designation "Explosive" simply conveys the violent expansion and or disintegration. These bullets are mostly hollow point. This is in contrast to bullets designed for heavy boned thick skinned game where the goal is deep penetration through heavy bone, skin and muscle with controlled gradual expansion. The latter bullets can be soft point or bonded or all copper. These bullets may or may not transfer all their energy depending on wehter they have a clean passage and leave an exit wound. The extreme opposite are solid bullets which will not deform and are meant for head shots on the heaviest and largest game like those found in the African continent or the indian sub continent like elephants, gaur, rhino and buffalo.

Last edited by Slim; 01 Jun 12 at 18:29..
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Old 04 Jun 12, 04:17
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I must agree with you here. I think all the commotion is caused by the cries of unfair when this type of ammunition was said to be used against human targets. This is apparently in contraventions with the Geneva Convention.
No. It's clearly a violation of the St. Petersburg Declaration, 1868.
OTOH dum-dum bullets and the like were prohibited by the Hague Declaration III, 1899.

Edit to add that of course, prohibitions of use in war have nothing to do with internal regulations about civilian use (in hunting, for instance) or about law enforcement.

Last edited by Michele; 04 Jun 12 at 04:24..
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Old 05 Jun 12, 16:33
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
No. It's clearly a violation of the St. Petersburg Declaration, 1868.
OTOH dum-dum bullets and the like were prohibited by the Hague Declaration III, 1899.

Edit to add that of course, prohibitions of use in war have nothing to do with internal regulations about civilian use (in hunting, for instance) or about law enforcement.
Are these declarations still honoured?
Defensive and offensive handgrenades and other kinds of weapons aimed to enhance maiming such as bayonets with saw toothed edged blades or triangular cross sections.
Iiac these were also subjected to various declarations.

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Old 05 Jun 12, 16:54
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Then we had the Swedish Human Bullet that wasnt supposed to hurt you as much as a nasty un-human bullet produced by people like Winchester, Hornady etc,etc.. or any other ammo supplier.....
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Old 05 Jun 12, 17:24
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Then we had the Swedish Human Bullet that wasnt supposed to hurt you as much as a nasty un-human bullet produced by people like Winchester, Hornady etc,etc.. or any other ammo supplier.....
Expand please

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