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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #31  
Old 23 Jan 17, 02:29
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Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
10 x ~600 gives you 6000 spaces- that's not enough for two whole BCTs.

Span of control mandates something between brigade and corps- whether its a division or something else.
I understood the Division HQ had 900 each, and 900 x 11 (don't forget the 7th Division) is 9900. Should have made two 4500 BCT each.

As for Span of Control, modern networking I think would allow for more than the usual five maneuver elements. I also think an additional assistant Corps commander could be attached (with perhaps a small staff) to assist in control without adding all the baggage of divisional level command staffs. In general I would redistribute the aviation assets (tailored to the specific types) to the brigades, and would only a have a corps level brigade for logistics.

I would also convert two perhaps three of the current five airborne brigades into something else (heavy or medium or even air assault). Paratroopers, except in certain specialized cases, are obsolete. The days of large airborne operations are over.

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  #32  
Old 23 Jan 17, 06:27
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
I understood the Division HQ had 900 each, and 900 x 11 (don't forget the 7th Division) is 9900. Should have made two 4500 BCT each.
They modular division HQs were 798 on the TOE. They've already taken the 25% reduction mandated a couple of years ago to protect BCTs while reducing from 540K to 470K. 7th ID is not a complete HQs, but a different, much smaller, TDA.

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As for Span of Control, modern networking I think would allow for more than the usual five maneuver elements. I also think an additional assistant Corps commander could be attached (with perhaps a small staff) to assist in control without adding all the baggage of divisional level command staffs. In general I would redistribute the aviation assets (tailored to the specific types) to the brigades, and would only a have a corps level brigade for logistics.
But networking doesn't expand the commander's ability to understand, visualize, describe and direct subordinate activities, and beyond a certain span of control, it just becomes too much.

Under modularity, we tried exactly what you are talking about - remember UEx and UEy? Instead of divisions, corps, and armies, we were going to have only two levels of HQs. If span of control became to large, we would fleet a UEx (normally a 2-star) up to 3-star to operate in between the other UExs and the UEy. We discovered that we needed those two separate echelons. If you did it ad hoc with another deputy CG, it would soon become formalized. That's exactly what happened at FT Lewis with 7th ID. The span of control was too much for the corps, and the put 7th ID in, just for garrison operations. And that only lasted a short time- the demand for division HQs caused it to be deployed.

There are arguments to be made for how centralized aviation needs to be. While the idea of small packets available to the brigades is nice, it is easier to decentralize from aviation brigades than to ad hoc brigade structures when you don't have them. We found the same thing with artillery, which is why we brought back DIVARTY. Aviation also gains efficiencies in support with centralization, and is flexible enough to move around larger areas than a BCT area of operations.

If you only had a single corps-level logistics brigade, you'd run into huge span of control issues. Look at the V Corps OOB for OIF 1, as posted in "On Point" by the Combat Studies Institute (its a free pdf). I count 36 logistics battalions, plus the medical, personnel services, finance, etc. Even if you assume the 18 in the maneuver brigades don't need a logistics brigade HQ, your span of control is still too much. Since 2003, the modular force structure has reduced the logistics C2 overhead somewhat. Again, you reach a point of diminishing returns.

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I would also convert two perhaps three of the current five airborne brigades into something else (heavy or medium or even air assault). Paratroopers, except in certain specialized cases, are obsolete. The days of large airborne operations are over.

Tuebor
Now we're at a point we can discuss- there's actually another thread about if and how much airborne we need to have. I agree that we're unlikely to conduct large-scale airborne operations. But if you want to keep the capability to conduct a conventional brigade insertion, you need to keep a division- 3 gets you 1. And the C2 does matter.
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  #33  
Old 24 Jan 17, 06:24
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Were you aware the Army was using the 7th Infantry Division HQ and the 24th Infantry Division HQ to run six National Guard Brigades? There was no support units or fires brigades. It gave the Regular Army an excuse to create two new Major General slots that could have gone to National Guard Generals. In the past the National Guard Divisions in multiple state would have to divide up the Division HQ and rotate the command of the division. This eliminates that need.

What will they do with the National Guard Brigades now? They already have to draw down the number of soldiers in the Army.

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Caught this thread a little late.

When I went into the Army in 1969, it was 1.2 million strong, then with the end of Vietnam War the Army became a downsizing organization and for all of my career I went through six or eight reduction-in-force.

By the summer of 1992, I was brought into a working conference of Colonels, Generals and Senior Civilians with General Sullivan Chief of Staff for the Army. His problem with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and how to managed an army at 536,000 that was going to have several divisions (after the Persian Gulf War) inactivated and the numbers of the Army would continue going south. (I was pulled from a National Security Fellowship at Harvard's Kennedy School for Government to work with the History committee and brief what international and national trends would impact on a future army.)

The key advice from the working groups in the committee was the Chief of Staff with the dwindling numbers needed to maintain a core of professional officers in TDA positions in order to form a cadre upon which to command a rapid expansion in forces--much like what happened on the eve of WWII. While I retired out in 1995 with 27 years to avoid receiving a 'pink slip' (an 8th RIF) and staying under 50 years old in a job hunt, it does not surprise me that the Army would hold on to so division level headquarter staffed to facilitate organizationally a rapid expansion which would be round out reserve, National Guard brigades and green newly formed.

So, I think it was more than simple excuse to create an additional MG command slot, but logical in the greater context.
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  #34  
Old 24 Jan 17, 06:43
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My position has always been that if you create a division, make it a real division. That means adding a Support Command and a Aviation Brigade. One reason the Army went to a McGuire modular system was to get around having an Aviation Brigade per three brigades.

I don't see the US going through a rapid expansion like before WW2. If one does (God Forbid) the new divisions will not have the same TOE as the present divisions. It would take years to build the vehicles and aircraft needed. For instance, the present day Aviation Brigades may find themselves in Corps or Army Commands.

Besides, the Army has a surplus of Colonels and Generals already. Look at all of the ones at the Pentagon! If they wanted new HQ's as a hedge against future expansion, they could have reassigned some of the bureaucrats that they have now.

The issue is like the blind men examining an elephant by touch and then describing it! Perhaps we are on opposite sides of the elephant?

Pruitt
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  #35  
Old 24 Jan 17, 08:46
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
My position has always been that if you create a division, make it a real division. That means adding a Support Command and a Aviation Brigade. One reason the Army went to a McGuire modular system was to get around having an Aviation Brigade per three brigades.

I don't see the US going through a rapid expansion like before WW2. If one does (God Forbid) the new divisions will not have the same TOE as the present divisions. It would take years to build the vehicles and aircraft needed. For instance, the present day Aviation Brigades may find themselves in Corps or Army Commands.

Besides, the Army has a surplus of Colonels and Generals already. Look at all of the ones at the Pentagon! If they wanted new HQ's as a hedge against future expansion, they could have reassigned some of the bureaucrats that they have now.

The issue is like the blind men examining an elephant by touch and then describing it! Perhaps we are on opposite sides of the elephant?

Pruitt
I don't think you have been in the position of being the Chief of Staff of the Army, nor planning conferences, for an unreasonable draw-down of forces. The surplus is the concept for a rapid expansion. Where was LTC Eisenhower, Maj Wedemeyer, LTC Eichelberger .... on the eve of WWII?

Were you with the Mississippi Rifles Brigade that could not qualify at the National Training Center to round-out the 1st Cav Div (which ended up taking a 2nd AD brigade) for the 1st Persian Gulf war? It's a scary concept without professional cadre to integrate such forces, particularly above company level.
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  #36  
Old 24 Jan 17, 10:50
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From what I understand, Ike was in the Philippines studying theatrics under MacArthur. MacArthur called Ike the best Clerk he ever had! It has been years since I have read Wedemeyers book, so I can't say. I hope Eichelberger was serving with the troops. The Army had four divisions that had been formed and at least four more that were incomplete. The US Army was better prepared for WW2 than WWI. There was not a huge bureaucracy back then and an officer had the chance of meeting and knowing all the other officers. Marshall even kept track of who impressed him and who he thought was a dud.

I thought the draw down was unreasonable as well. For what that is worth. Like I pointed out before, the concept of forming HQ's for ersatz divisions is okay, but there was no reason to create new General and lesser slots. There were already a plethora of officers that should have given their first born to have a chance to serve in one over getting Riffed. The process was however unfair to National Guard Generals who could have also served.

When Desert Storm was winding up I was laid up with a shattered left foot and taking therapy in West CalCam Hospital. The male Therapist on the staff was most upset about the call up of the Louisiana Guard 256th Infantry Brigade. It seems he was serving as the Battalion Surgeon of the local 3rd/156th Battalion! He was NOT qualified to do Emergency Care! Going active meant a huge pay cut for him. I found out later they transferred a surgeon in to replace him and he worked in a Physical Therapy unit instead.

Yeah, I know what happened to the Mississippi, Georgia and Louisiana Guard Brigades. They were Round Out units that saw their parent Active divisions deploy without them. Even with extra Training Days, no Guard unit will score as an active unit will. They were supposed to deploy to say, Germany, and die bravely trying to hold off the Red Army while the US raised new formations who also would not perform as well as the old active divisions, either.

These Roundout Brigades scared the Regulars worse than they scared the Iraqis. If Congress saw the Guard Brigades could perform well, the Regulars would lose funding and have to cut back on Regular units. You could say the Army Regulars had a vested interest in seeing the Roundout Brigades did not make it to Iraq.

It is my opinion that the three brigades would have been sent as individual replacements as casualties mounted. Even if these Guardsmen could not pass a unit proficiency test at Fort Irwin, the individuals would have been much more skilled than guys fresh out of AIT. This would have been acceptable, but the Regulars did not need large numbers of Individual Replacements.

The members of the three brigades were made to sit in Fort Hood training seven days a week without any time off to see their families. There are differences between the Guard and the Regular Army. A Guardsman will be asked to act like a Regular and he will say, WHY?! It was only after one Brigade went AWOL one weekend to go see their families and they caught the Louisiana Guard hiring Buses to pull the same thing that the Guardsmen started getting some time off.

The Army just happened to have several active individual brigades that took these Roundout Brigades' places. Coincidence? The Army still had to use Brigades in Germany to fill the need for active brigades. These were available because Bush, Sr was already drawing down the Army active units.

I am getting off my soap box now.

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  #37  
Old 07 Feb 17, 01:57
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Still we should give the idea serious thought. Along with reactivation the 2nd, and 3rd Armored Divs as well as the 24th ID and maybe the 5th 8th and 23rd IDs.
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Old 07 Feb 17, 02:24
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
...

These Roundout Brigades scared the Regulars worse than they scared the Iraqis. If Congress saw the Guard Brigades could perform well, the Regulars would lose funding and have to cut back on Regular units. You could say the Army Regulars had a vested interest in seeing the Roundout Brigades did not make it to Iraq.

...
This was different than the USMC use of its reservists. While a large number of individual reservists, part IRR & part drawn from the active reserve units, were fed into the Active Service Marine battalions & HQ staff a fair number of reserve units fought in DS. These were mostly companies used to fill out active service battalions. In some cases a extra company was added, in others the reserve unit took one of existing slots in the battalion. A portion of the reserve units were stood up as replacements for the absent USMC formations in the US. My artillery unit was sent to SoCal as the early phase in organizing a entire new MEF there. I also suspect we would have been used as a replacement pool had DS actually reached the 15,000 casualties prepared for.
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  #39  
Old 07 Feb 17, 06:10
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Still we should give the idea serious thought. Along with reactivation the 2nd, and 3rd Armored Divs as well as the 24th ID and maybe the 5th 8th and 23rd IDs.

We've already got 11 division HQs for 30 BCTs- the same number of HQs we had for 45 BCTs. The shortfall is not in HQs.

The shortfall is not even in BCTs- we saved BCTs and BNs by reducing the number of maneuver companies.

And none of these things is on the list to use an endstrength increase to build. We need more long range fires, more ADA, more bridging and breaching, more truck companies and POL companies.

Lots of unsupported infantry is good for a counterinsurgency, but we've got more important threats than that.
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Old 13 Feb 17, 18:54
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The corps and division HQs may be modular but are they truly joint?

I like the MacGregor idea of pushing the concept of a joint task force HQ down to the three star level. No more pure corps and divisions, a brigade would be the biggest level of pure Army/USMC command.

Such a HQ would not have permanent units assigned and could be commanded by a three star from any branch. The commander would need two to three subordinate two star ground combat commanders, either Army or USMC. The two star commanders would receive various types of brigades as needed to form "division sized" ground combat commands.

It could be a USMC two star commanding a Marine Expeditionary Brigade, an Army Stryker Brigade, an Army Air Assault Brigade, and an Aviation Brigade. Or an Army two star commanding two Marine Expeditionary Brigades and an Army Mechanized Brigade. That's just an example, it would be built for whatever is required.

This is, more or less, the regional CinC system pushed down another level.
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Old 18 Feb 17, 20:45
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The corps and division HQs may be modular but are they truly joint?
...
This is, more or less, the regional CinC system pushed down another level.
We already sort of have this- both Corps and MEFs can become the core of a a JFLCC (Joint Force Land Component Command). Depending on the size of the operation, a Theater Army/Army Service Component Command can also be the JFLCC. For OIF 1, Third Army was the CJFLCC (Coalition). Check out the order of battle in the back of this book- Third Army had two major subordinates, V Corps and I MEF, along with a number of theater enablers. I MEF had a UK division, and number of Army CS and CSS elements.

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/car...s/OnPointI.pdf

I guess you are calling for standing HQs. This could work, but our institutional inability to really do joint would hurt us. See how I MEF is only TACON to the CJFLCC- that is because USMC generals are afraid that Army generals will mistreat them. Same thing happened in Afghanistan. The USAF is even worse at being joint.
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Old 18 Feb 17, 22:00
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If I'm not mistaken the 101st is still called an airborne division even though its troops aren't trained in parachute operations. The Stryker is an armored vehicle even if its not as heavily armored as the M-1 or Bradley. Also the 2nd Cavalry RGT has Stryker vehicles and is still called armored.
Air Assault is airborne, how is that hard to understand?
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Old 18 Feb 17, 22:22
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Air Assault is airborne, how is that hard to understand?
Up through at least 2004 (using the 2004 FM 1-02), the military definition of "airborne" was "In relation to personnel, troops especially trained to effect, following transport by air, an assault debarkation, either by parachuting or touchdown." By this definition of airborne, air assault is included.

In the 2015 ADRP 1-02, airborne is no longer defined as a stand alone term. However, "airborne assault" is "The use of airborne forces to parachute into an objective area to attack and eliminate armed resistance and secure designated objectives." While "air assault" is "The movement of friendly assault forces by rotary-wing aircraft to engage and destroy enemy forces or to seize and hold key terrain." Both reference JP 3-18. By these definitions, "air assault" is rotary wing and "airborne" is parachute, and the terms are mutually exclusive.
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Old 19 Feb 17, 14:55
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I guess you are calling for standing HQs. This could work, but our institutional inability to really do joint would hurt us.
Yes, like the regional CinCs but at a three star level. We have to do joint at the four star regional level right? And regional CinCs are sometimes Air Force and Navy.

If Northern Command or Pacific Command had to conduct ground combat operations in their area of responsibility would the Air Force or Navy CinC be replaced by an Army or USMC general? Or would it be a case of Army or USMC generals handling the ground component?

MacGregor's idea, if I understand it correctly, is the same thing pushed down to a three star level.
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Old 19 Feb 17, 15:42
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Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
Yes, like the regional CinCs but at a three star level. We have to do joint at the four star regional level right? And regional CinCs are sometimes Air Force and Navy.
The six Geographic Combatant Commands (GCCs)- CENTCOM, NORTHCOM, SOUTHCOM, EUCOM, PACOM and AFRICOM- are all 4-stars. They have subordinate Service Component Commands (PACAF, NAVFOREUR, ARCENT, etc) that are sometimes 4-stars and sometimes 3-stars, I think US Army Africa is a 2-star. The can also have subordinate joint commands (sub-unified commands or joint task forces), which can be 4-stars (USFK, USFOR-A), 3-stars (CJTF-I) or even less (JTF-North, etc).

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Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
If Northern Command or Pacific Command had to conduct ground combat operations in their area of responsibility would the Air Force or Navy CinC be replaced by an Army or USMC general? Or would it be a case of Army or USMC generals handling the ground component?
We've only got a couple of historical examples. In Vietnam, MAC-V was a subordinate joint command led by an Army 4-star under the Navy 4-star at PACOM. In Desert Storm, GEN Schwarzkopf did not appoint a joint force land component command (JFLCC), but he did have a JFACC (air) and JFMCC (maritime). For Iraq and Afghanistan we grew a subordinate joint command (MNF-I and USFOR-A) over time. And of course we have USFK as a standing sub-unified command.

The answer to your question is that it will depend on the operations being conducted.

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Originally Posted by KRJ View Post
MacGregor's idea, if I understand it correctly, is the same thing pushed down to a three star level.
It's been quite a while since I read "Breaking the Phalanx" (as a cadet !!), and I didn't pick up any of the joint C2 implications. Like I said, we have the capability to do joint at the 3-star level now, but it is ad hoc and we don't do it very well. Standing 3-star joint commands feel like a good idea, but they would become "property" of either the Army or the USMC pretty quickly.
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