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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Orders of Battle

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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #16  
Old 21 Jan 17, 23:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
The 7th ID is already active at FT Lewis, and has deployed even though it is not a full TOE division HQ.

We don't need any more division HQs- we already have 11 for 28 (or 30) BCTs, compared to 10 for the 33 BDE-equivalents we had on 9-10-01. More HQs is not the answer to #readiness, which is all the rage these days.
There is always a need in the Pentagon to create new General slots! Did you check to see how many National Guard Brigades were assigned to these division HQ's or are you only counting active brigades?

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Old 21 Jan 17, 23:16
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Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
101st is Airborne as much as the glider troops of WW2.
That was true until 2004 (when the division was modularized and the brigades, both aviation and infantry, became separate from the division), and arguably until 2015, when the 159th Aviation Brigade was inactivated.

Since then, there is no difference between the 101st division and any other light division (10th, 25th), and no difference between the BCTs of the 101st and any other infantry BCTs. Without 159th AVN BDE, there's not even the extra helicopters to enable additional training.
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Old 21 Jan 17, 23:19
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
There is always a need in the Pentagon to create new General slots! Did you check to see how many National Guard Brigades were assigned to these division HQ's or are you only counting active brigades?

Pruitt
I was only counting active HQs. We haven't cut any ARNG division HQs in a while- I haven't checked in how long.

Before the parody that is the current "affiliated unit" program, the ARNG BCTs were assigned to ARNG division HQs. I didn't check if that changed.
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Old 21 Jan 17, 23:26
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According to the web search I just did, the 7th InfDiv commands the two 2nd Division brigades stationed at Fort Lewis and the 41st ARMBDE WANG was just assigned to it. This looks like an Army bureaucracy answer to having two brigades at Fort Lewis without a local HQ unit.

There is an old saying: "There is a RIGHT Way; a WRONG way and the ARMY way".

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  #20  
Old 22 Jan 17, 00:08
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
According to the web search I just did, the 7th InfDiv commands the two 2nd Division brigades stationed at Fort Lewis and the 41st ARMBDE WANG was just assigned to it. This looks like an Army bureaucracy answer to having two brigades at Fort Lewis without a local HQ unit.

There is an old saying: "There is a RIGHT Way; a WRONG way and the ARMY way".

Pruitt
The WAARNG is the 81st ABCT, not the 41st IBCT. The 41st IBCT is an Infantry BCT in the ORARNG.

What website did you find that said the 7th ID has command over any ARNG units? Neither the 41st nor the 81st are shown on the JBLM website (http://www.lewis-mcchord.army.mil/army.html) or on the 7th ID website (http://www.lewis-mcchord.army.mil/7id/).

The 81st is associated with the 7th ID under the new "Associated Unit" program (http://www.stripes.com/news/army-to-...units-1.400570), but that doesn't appear to be a command relationship. Its hard to tell from the limited information posted (like here https://www.army.mil/standto/archive_2016-04-26, and https://www.army.mil/article/164792).
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Old 22 Jan 17, 00:57
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You are right about the WANG Brigade is the 81st. You might look at the thread about the 81st Brigade getting Strykers. Anything else you need information on? Maybe you are just going to follow me around to read my posts?

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  #22  
Old 22 Jan 17, 01:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
The WAARNG is the 81st ABCT, not the 41st IBCT. The 41st IBCT is an Infantry BCT in the ORARNG.

What website did you find that said the 7th ID has command over any ARNG units? Neither the 41st nor the 81st are shown on the JBLM website (http://www.lewis-mcchord.army.mil/army.html) or on the 7th ID website (http://www.lewis-mcchord.army.mil/7id/).

The 81st is associated with the 7th ID under the new "Associated Unit" program (http://www.stripes.com/news/army-to-...units-1.400570), but that doesn't appear to be a command relationship. Its hard to tell from the limited information posted (like here https://www.army.mil/standto/archive_2016-04-26, and https://www.army.mil/article/164792).
The 7th INFDIV is commanding the the 2nd INFDIV units at Fort Lewis. The 81st INFBDE is also attached to the 2nd INFDIV, AND the 7th INFDIV. It does not make sense to me, but maybe the Army wants a Division HQ at Fort Lewis? This would make the Division a three STRYKER Brigade Division. If the Army decides to send the two active brigades somewhere else the 7th INFDIV HQ is there ready to command them.

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Old 22 Jan 17, 10:02
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The 7th INFDIV is commanding the the 2nd INFDIV units at Fort Lewis. The 81st INFBDE is also attached to the 2nd INFDIV, AND the 7th INFDIV. It does not make sense to me, but maybe the Army wants a Division HQ at Fort Lewis? This would make the Division a three STRYKER Brigade Division. If the Army decides to send the two active brigades somewhere else the 7th INFDIV HQ is there ready to command them.

Pruitt
Now you're getting nearly incoherent.

The 81st ABCT is an "associated unit" (new program, which essentially gives Training Readiness Oversight) of the 7th ID. Like I said, that is NOT command.

As far as I can find, there is no connection between the 81st ABCT and 2nd ID. In fact, there's no connection between the 2nd ID HQ and the two BCTs that wear the 2nd ID patch except that they wear the same patch. The CG in Korea has no influence over the BCT commanders.

The active army absolutely wants a division HQ at FT Lewis- the span of control of the corps was the express reason for standing that HQ up. It was originally stood up as a non-deployable, administrative HQ. But that has since changed, and the headquarters has deployed.

With a modular division HQ, there is no requirement for 3 BCTs. At least three of the HQs only have two BCTs assigned (1st ID, 7th ID, and 25th ID), and 2nd ID has only one BCT (the rotational BCT in Korea). You have to look at both the total span of control (BCTs AND functional brigades) and the other mission set. And that's before the creation of the "affiliated unit" program, which is another change in dynamic.
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Old 22 Jan 17, 11:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Now you're getting nearly incoherent.

The 81st ABCT is an "associated unit" (new program, which essentially gives Training Readiness Oversight) of the 7th ID. Like I said, that is NOT command.

As far as I can find, there is no connection between the 81st ABCT and 2nd ID. In fact, there's no connection between the 2nd ID HQ and the two BCTs that wear the 2nd ID patch except that they wear the same patch. The CG in Korea has no influence over the BCT commanders.

The active army absolutely wants a division HQ at FT Lewis- the span of control of the corps was the express reason for standing that HQ up. It was originally stood up as a non-deployable, administrative HQ. But that has since changed, and the headquarters has deployed.

With a modular division HQ, there is no requirement for 3 BCTs. At least three of the HQs only have two BCTs assigned (1st ID, 7th ID, and 25th ID), and 2nd ID has only one BCT (the rotational BCT in Korea). You have to look at both the total span of control (BCTs AND functional brigades) and the other mission set. And that's before the creation of the "affiliated unit" program, which is another change in dynamic.
The Associated Unit Plan is a redo of the old Roundout Program. Several of the National Guard units are associated/attached to the same regular units they were attached to in the Roundout Program before Desert Storm. According to the article I think you read from Stripes, or Military Times, the 81st INFBDE is "associated/assigned" to the 7th INFDIV. The 25th INDIV is tied to the 1/151 INFREG, and the 100/442 INFREG as well. The Hawaii National Guard states that the 29th INFBDE is assigned to the 25th INFDIV as well. The 10th Mountain Division now has the 86th INFBDE "associated" with it. It used to have the New York 27th INFBDE. The 3rd INFDIV has the 48th INFBDE "associated" with it.

The 1st INFDIV interests me as none of the websites I looked at list a third Brigade. Not long ago it had what, four? The 3rd BDE used to be in Germany. Not to worry, I am sure the Army will assign a Guard Brigade to them after they declare the "Association Program" a success. The loss of the third brigade is probably why the 1/26 was assigned to the 101st Airborne.

The Army is currently shedding active duty troops to get to the manpower mandated in 2018. That is why a number of Brigades have been deleted. My bet is the trend will reverse now Trump is in office. The Regular Divisions had four brigades for a while but all Brigades, except STRYKER Brigades, had only two Combat Battalions assigned. When they deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq, a third battalion was assigned for duty with them there.

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Old 22 Jan 17, 14:05
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At this point, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Associated Unit Plan is a redo of the old Roundout Program. Several of the National Guard units are associated/attached to the same regular units they were attached to in the Roundout Program before Desert Storm. According to the article I think you read from Stripes, or Military Times, the 81st INFBDE is "associated/assigned" to the 7th INFDIV. The 25th INDIV is tied to the 1/151 INFREG, and the 100/442 INFREG as well. The Hawaii National Guard states that the 29th INFBDE is assigned to the 25th INFDIV as well. The 10th Mountain Division now has the 86th INFBDE "associated" with it. It used to have the New York 27th INFBDE. The 3rd INFDIV has the 48th INFBDE "associated" with it.
There are some similarities. The biggest difference I see, without comparing the actual authorities, is that the associated units aren't filling gaps in the force structure. The three IN BNs associated with the OCONUS IBCTs are, but the rest aren't, as far as I can tell. For example, 48th IBCT apparently has a full FA battalion and three IN battalions, but it still has TF 1-28 IN affiliated, which would bring a fourth IN BN and fourth FA firing battery. Contrawise, when the 48th BDE was the roundout for 24th ID(M), 24th's CAV SQDN was short a troop, and the DIVARTY was short a battalion, because those units came with the BDE.I don't know enough of the details to compare the actual authorities of the roundout vs affiliated unit.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The 1st INFDIV interests me as none of the websites I looked at list a third Brigade. Not long ago it had what, four? The 3rd BDE used to be in Germany. Not to worry, I am sure the Army will assign a Guard Brigade to them after they declare the "Association Program" a success. The loss of the third brigade is probably why the 1/26 was assigned to the 101st Airborne.
A couple of years ago, all 10 divisions had four BCTs, plus there were five separates. When we cut to 30 and kept three separates, three divisions (1st ID, 2d ID, 3d ID) only have two BCTs active. 1-26 IN and 1-28 IN both represent historic regiments. To keep elements of the regiment active, those battalions have been assigned to non-traditional places. It does have to do with the inactivation of BCTs in 1st ID.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Army is currently shedding active duty troops to get to the manpower mandated in 2018. That is why a number of Brigades have been deleted. My bet is the trend will reverse now Trump is in office. The Regular Divisions had four brigades for a while but all Brigades, except STRYKER Brigades, had only two Combat Battalions assigned. When they deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq, a third battalion was assigned for duty with them there.

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Here you go again with wrong information. From 2004-6, when we converted to modularity, until ~2013-14 (some of the transitions may have extended in 2015, but I'm not sure), modular Infantry and Heavy/Armor BCTs had two infantry (in IBCTs) or combined arms (in H/ABCTs) battalions, a cavalry squadron, and an FA battalion- all four of those units are "combat battalions". There was no consistent policy of adding a third infantry or combined arms battalion for deployments to Afghanistan or Iraq. In fact, the only time I can think of an additional battalion for deployment was when the GRF (2/82d ABN) deployed as the initial surge BCT, and took an extra infantry battalion (1-504th IN, normally assigned to 1/82d ABN). Numerous task organization changes happened in theater, but we never stripped infantry or combined arms battalions from some BCTs to fill out other BCTs and there was no pool of unassigned battalions. Your info is just wrong.
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Old 22 Jan 17, 18:27
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Or you just do not keep up with Guard deployments to those two theaters. When Guard Brigades went over they were augmented with other Guard units that were not normally associated with them. One deployment saw the Louisiana Guard Brigade augmented by a Guard AA unit from Illinois.

The Pentagon decreed Guard Brigades would delete or convert one of their three combat Battalions into Cavalry Battalions to fit the new MOE. I have yet to find any of the Brigades affected so were able to raise a new Infantry or Heavy Battalion.

The Louisiana 256th Infantry Brigade was converted from Heavy to Light TOE after they returned from overseas. On arrival the 1st/108th Armor was converted into a Cavalry Battalion for the Brigade. The 2nd and 3rd/156th Battalions lost all their vehicles in Fort Polk and became Leg Infantry. They should have a third Infantry Battalion like the regulars do. The Washington Artillery converted from Paladins to 105 Howitzers, but was given 18 of them. That should be three Batteries worth, but they may call it two BIG Batteries.

My guess is if it deploys again it will get that battalion from another state. In recent years, Missouri, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico converted units to Infantry. Arizona's now is attached to the 29th INFBDE, Hawaii National Guard. I am unsure who the others are attached to.

I am sorry to see you are having reading comprehension problems. I am trying to use the simplest terms I can. Maybe if you do not google search all your information and trust the authors who claim there have been no Airborne units in the Pacific outside of Alaska, you might understand my posts better. Do you really think those three 500 series Battalions once in Korea did not stress Airborne heritage, even if they never did Jump Training and only jumped out of Helicopters?

If the war ever starts up again in Korea, those two 2nd INFDIV STRYKER Brigades will be released by Pacific Command and returned to Korea. The 25th INFDIV will also be going as well as a Marine Division. The 82nd Airborne will be lucky not to be sent. South Korea has over a million men active and reserve and they are almost all Light Infantry. They would need Heavy Brigades from the CONUS.

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Old 22 Jan 17, 19:21
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Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Your posts are merely the rambling connection of some partially correct information that doesn't support the assertions that you make.

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Or you just do not keep up with Guard deployments to those two theaters. When Guard Brigades went over they were augmented with other Guard units that were not normally associated with them. One deployment saw the Louisiana Guard Brigade augmented by a Guard AA unit from Illinois.
Actually, I worked force structure planning in Afghanistan for a year, and generally kept up otherwise. Looked at classified patch charts, and the OOB that was put out regularly by Long War Journal or Institute for the Study of War (can't remember which). Most of the ARNG BCTs that deployed deployed to do non-standard missions, so they had a modified organization. You stated "The Regular Divisions had four brigades for a while but all Brigades, except STRYKER Brigades, had only two Combat Battalions assigned. When they deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq, a third battalion was assigned for duty with them there." That is simply not true.

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The Pentagon decreed Guard Brigades would delete or convert one of their three combat Battalions into Cavalry Battalions to fit the new MOE. I have yet to find any of the Brigades affected so were able to raise a new Infantry or Heavy Battalion.
From 2004 til ~2007, ALL BCTs, except Stryker BCTs, converted to the modular designs with a cavalry squadron and 2 infantry or combined arms battalions. In addition, most if not all of the Maneuver Enhancement Brigades in the RC had a maneuver (infantry, in most cases, but some combined arms) battalion. Since 2012, we're fixing that, returning a third infantry or combined arms battalion to each BCT. I haven't looked to see where they came from.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Louisiana 256th Infantry Brigade was converted from Heavy to Light TOE after they returned from overseas. On arrival the 1st/108th Armor was converted into a Cavalry Battalion for the Brigade. The 2nd and 3rd/156th Battalions lost all their vehicles in Fort Polk and became Leg Infantry. They should have a third Infantry Battalion like the regulars do. The Washington Artillery converted from Paladins to 105 Howitzers, but was given 18 of them. That should be three Batteries worth, but they may call it two BIG Batteries.
Likely (because I haven't checked the 256th MTOE, but this is the progression that BCTs across the Army generally followed), the converted to a battalion with two firing batteries of 8 guns each (16 guns, M119 towed 105mm since we are talking about an IBCT) initially, and then added a third firing battery, of M777 towed 155mm, recently- but reduced the batteries from 8 guns to 6 guns (18 total) -that change may not have happened yet.

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My guess is if it deploys again it will get that battalion from another state. In recent years, Missouri, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico converted units to Infantry. Arizona's now is attached to the 29th INFBDE, Hawaii National Guard. I am unsure who the others are attached to.
As part of the new organization, the BCT will get a third infantry battalion. It might be from another state. I recently saw a listing of the third infantry battalions, but it was behind a CAC wall, so I can't publish it.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I am sorry to see you are having reading comprehension problems. I am trying to use the simplest terms I can. Maybe if you do not google search all your information and trust the authors who claim there have been no Airborne units in the Pacific outside of Alaska, you might understand my posts better. Do you really think those three 500 series Battalions once in Korea did not stress Airborne heritage, even if they never did Jump Training and only jumped out of Helicopters?
By "google search all your information" do you mean actually cite sources published by the Army? I'm all for using simple terms, but that doesn't mean mis-using military English. In the other thread your referencing, we were talking about jump status units, and then you switched to talking about lineage. Just like the 101st, the battalions in Korea were not on jump status, regardless of their designation.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
If the war ever starts up again in Korea, those two 2nd INFDIV STRYKER Brigades will be released by Pacific Command and returned to Korea. The 25th INFDIV will also be going as well as a Marine Division. The 82nd Airborne will be lucky not to be sent. South Korea has over a million men active and reserve and they are almost all Light Infantry. They would need Heavy Brigades from the CONUS.
Here's an example of points that don't back up your assertion. You talk about the need for heavies, but list Stryker and Infantry BCTs for Korea. Did you know that there is a rotational ABCT in Korea? And a prepo set of equipment for another? I'd imagine that filling those prepos will take priority over SBCTs, if something does kick of there.

And unless the ROKs have radically changed their structure, they aren't mostly light infantry. Their organization resembled our old structure, with 3 infantry regiments and a tank battalion in each division. You're right that they are mostly infantry, but their current plan is to reduce their overall structure but mechanize more of it. I'm convinced that the South Koreans would beat the North by themselves- we wouldn't be needed on the ground at all. But that's just a personal opinion.
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Old 22 Jan 17, 20:54
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Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
The 7th ID is already active at FT Lewis, and has deployed even though it is not a full TOE division HQ.

We don't need any more division HQs- we already have 11 for 28 (or 30) BCTs, compared to 10 for the 33 BDE-equivalents we had on 9-10-01. More HQs is not the answer to #readiness, which is all the rage these days.
As we have gone to a brigade based force, we could do without the division HQ altogether. Personnel savings alone could bring us at least two more brigades.

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Old 22 Jan 17, 21:28
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Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
As we have gone to a brigade based force, we could do without the division HQ altogether. Personnel savings alone could bring us at least two more brigades.

Tuebor
10 x ~600 gives you 6000 spaces- that's not enough for two whole BCTs.

Span of control mandates something between brigade and corps- whether its a division or something else.

V Corps in early OIF had four division HQs (3d ID, 4th ID, 101st ABN, and 82d ABN) and two other GO HQs (Corps Artillery and COSCOM) intermediate between it and, if I count correctly, 44 brigade level commands. I assume that the separate companies and battalions that reported to divisions would be grouped under brigade HQs, but 1:44 is still a huge span of control. Even if you only count the maneuver elements, there are 18 maneuver and aviation brigades, and at least 5 FA brigades or DIVARTYs, still a huge span of control. I think that you still need a division-level echelon.
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Old 23 Jan 17, 00:26
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Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Actually, I worked force structure planning in Afghanistan for a year, and generally kept up otherwise. Looked at classified patch charts, and the OOB that was put out regularly by Long War Journal or Institute for the Study of War (can't remember which). Most of the ARNG BCTs that deployed deployed to do non-standard missions, so they had a modified organization. You stated "The Regular Divisions had four brigades for a while but all Brigades, except STRYKER Brigades, had only two Combat Battalions assigned. When they deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq, a third battalion was assigned for duty with them there." That is simply not true.

I kept track of mostly units assigned to Iraq. This is where the 256th Brigade went the most often. I remember checking the 82nd Airborne and found it had four brigades with two Airborne Infantry Battalions in each. Most of the other divisions I checked in Iraq had three Combat Battalions assigned. The last time the 256th had returned from Iraq, she came back with two Infantry and one Armor Battalion (their equipment was not shipped with them so they fought on foot).



From 2004 til ~2007, ALL BCTs, except Stryker BCTs, converted to the modular designs with a cavalry squadron and 2 infantry or combined arms battalions. In addition, most if not all of the Maneuver Enhancement Brigades in the RC had a maneuver (infantry, in most cases, but some combined arms) battalion. Since 2012, we're fixing that, returning a third infantry or combined arms battalion to each BCT. I haven't looked to see where they came from.

When McGuire came up with his concept for Combat Teams, a Brigade was supposed to get from two to five Infantry and Combined Arms Battalions. Yet, Rumsfeld needed Brigades to rotate for duty so he deleted them down to two battalions each and activated more brigades. Fast forward years later and the Army had to cut a number of these new brigades so they took battalions from the deleted brigades to make three battalions in each of the remaining brigades. Since the National Guard converted many of its third battalions into other types of battalions, there has been no return of Guard brigades to a three battalion format. That would cost extra money and the Army is actually cutting expenses. Too bad for the Guard?

Likely (because I haven't checked the 256th MTOE, but this is the progression that BCTs across the Army generally followed), the converted to a battalion with two firing batteries of 8 guns each (16 guns, M119 towed 105mm since we are talking about an IBCT) initially, and then added a third firing battery, of M777 towed 155mm, recently- but reduced the batteries from 8 guns to 6 guns (18 total) -that change may not have happened yet.

I read in the paper that the Washington Artillery was given 18 howitzers in return for its Paladins. That does not divide into 8 gun batteries, so I am assuming the two batteries are overstrength. Light Artillery Support Battalions only use 105 howitzers to my knowledge.

As part of the new organization, the BCT will get a third infantry battalion. It might be from another state. I recently saw a listing of the third infantry battalions, but it was behind a CAC wall, so I can't publish it.

There are also too many Brigades for four battalions to fill. They raised Infantry battalions in Arizona, Colorado, Missouri and New Mexico. Where are the rest coming from? I was having trouble getting information from the Army's Office of Public Information and from the State Adjutant Generals I wrote to when I was laid up in the early 80's. I had a Lieutenant Colonel sic an FBI agent on me claiming there was no way a nobody in Sulphur, Louisiana could have such a detailed knowledge of the Military? That same agent was shown the stack of letters and copies I had made and received and he let my trailer laughing at that officer. I then sent a letter to the then Secretary of Defense and he graciously sent a reply saying he had directed the officer and the Adjutant Generals to give me what I asked for. I also got a large stack of print outs containing the lists of State units in the National Guard. I have moved several times since then and I had to leave behind a large amount of my stuff. Hey, I will understand if you can't reveal any dark Army secrets. I can always write and ask the same office again. If I knew your name I would tell them to send you an attaboy for your file!

By "google search all your information" do you mean actually cite sources published by the Army? I'm all for using simple terms, but that doesn't mean mis-using military English. In the other thread your referencing, we were talking about jump status units, and then you switched to talking about lineage. Just like the 101st, the battalions in Korea were not on jump status, regardless of their designation.

When I found out there was a whole brigade of 500 series battalions in Korea, I thought they were Airborne. I found out later they were Airmobile and had KATUSA's attached. Then a battalion was deleted, and I wrote my Senators and Congressman asking if this was a good use of taxes? I learned they had a battalion of Koreans attached to both of the brigades in the 2nd INFDIV. I knew my Senators and Congressman back then and I don't know you. Why should I take your word over their's?

Here's an example of points that don't back up your assertion. You talk about the need for heavies, but list Stryker and Infantry BCTs for Korea. Did you know that there is a rotational ABCT in Korea? And a prepo set of equipment for another? I'd imagine that filling those prepos will take priority over SBCTs, if something does kick of there.

I would assume (there I go again!) that the missing parts of the 2nd INFDIV would be returned to Korea if things heated up again. True STRYKERS are not heavy, but they are easy to move and have a little armor. The 25th INFDIV is tasked to reinforce Korea. Would I rather a couple of Heavy Brigades? Sure, but I am not in charge. The problem is Korea also has very little terrain that can handle heavy vehicles. The Norks have a lot of older armor though that has to be addressed.

And unless the ROKs have radically changed their structure, they aren't mostly light infantry. Their organization resembled our old structure, with 3 infantry regiments and a tank battalion in each division. You're right that they are mostly infantry, but their current plan is to reduce their overall structure but mechanize more of it. I'm convinced that the South Koreans would beat the North by themselves- we wouldn't be needed on the ground at all. But that's just a personal opinion.
We are bound by treaty to go to Korea if the balloon goes up again. I would hope we don't have to do this again, but the Kim family in charge of the North is more than a little insane. They have learned they can overspend on the military and the US, Japan and South Korea will send food if they threaten war. I don't trust them!

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