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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II

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World War II Discuss WW2. .

View Poll Results: Was the German Army (Heer) really so superior in WW2?
Absolutely no question. They were easily the best for pretty much the entire war 1 1.01%
The Heer possessed an innate superiority but was overwhelmed by sheer numbers and degraded by attrition 16 16.16%
Clearly more than a match for any opponent in the first half of the war at least; and even after that still often gave better than they got 35 35.35%
Easily the best during the early 'Blitzkrieg' campaigns and remained at least competitive thereafter 30 30.30%
The Heer enjoyed something of an edge in the early campaigns but their opponents caught up quickly 17 17.17%
As per option 5 but some of their opponents actually bettered them on at least one level 13 13.13%
German strategic skills were never anything special; and their tactical & operation skills were only slightly better in the early campaigns 11 11.11%
As per option 7 but Allied armies had clearly at least equally them tactically and bested them on other levels from 42/43 onwards 7 7.07%
They only won the early campaigns through a combination of luck, and the incompetence & lack of preparedness of their opponents. They were never anything special 7 7.07%
The Germans were never much good. It's all propaganda 2 2.02%
Other (please state and explain) 5 5.05%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301  
Old 19 Feb 12, 16:00
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One. The Soviets could have done it by themselves. The US could definitely have done it by 6.8.45 without sending one troop over to Europe. If you read this and this it more than appears that just by hanging on the UK would have beaten the Nazis as well.



Racialist? But the Nazi's were not Nationalistic. They gassed German WW1 iron cross recipients just for being the wrong religeon.



Define honourable defeat?

However, with a name like B0 I suspect you may not be all you appear.
Of course the Soviets could have defeated the Nazis by themselves, they had the largest Army in the world while the entire population of the USSR was nearly 200 million people. The Wehrmacht and the SS had practically inflicted genocide on the Russian military without it even putting a dent on their reserves. The casualties they had inflicted alone within the first year of Operation Barbarossa would have finished off any other country.

How do i define an honerble defeat? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many folk believe the war should have ended in 1943 and not 1945. Two more years of heavy fighting for a defeated and exausted Army.

As for my name, please don't insult it as i could quite easily rearrange the letters of yours to come up with something more insulting.

P.S..If you are going to give me bad rep points, at least do so for valid reasons and not in an attempt to spam, cheers.

Last edited by Bravo Zero; 19 Feb 12 at 16:05..
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  #302  
Old 19 Feb 12, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravo Zero View Post
Of course the Soviets could have defeated the Nazis by themselves, they had the largest Army in the world while the entire population of the USSR was nearly 200 million people. The Wehrmacht and the SS had practically inflicted genocide on the Russian military without it even putting a dent on their reserves. The casualties they had inflicted alone within the first year of Operation Barbarossa would have finished off any other country.

How do i define an honerble defeat? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many folk believe the war should have ended in 1943 and not 1945. Two more years of heavy fighting for a defeated and exausted Army.

As for my name, please don't insult it as i could quite easily rearrange the letters of yours to come up with something more insulting.

P.S..If you are going to give me bad rep points, at least do so for valid reasons and not in an attempt to spam, cheers.
You have me all wrong. I thought you were another member here, a known jester who likes to stir the pot. By backing the Nazi soldiers and yet calling yourself BO I thought it was just a sly poke at some of us here. For that I am truly sorry and will make no reference to it again.

However, your opinion on the Nazi's stinks imo .
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  #303  
Old 19 Feb 12, 16:49
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Originally Posted by Bravo Zero View Post
How do i define an honerble defeat? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many folk believe the war should have ended in 1943 and not 1945. Two more years of heavy fighting for a defeated and exausted Army.
Just because they were too stupid to recognise defeat does not negate the scale of the defeat. The body was still twitching in 1945 but it was mortaly wounded in 1943.
I hear the sound of straws being grasped..............
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  #304  
Old 19 Feb 12, 18:01
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Well they certainly were stupid.
By 1943 their defeat was inevitable. Any sensible person would have sought terms. By mid 1944 the end no longer deniable even to the most rabid SS pervert. In truth they were beaten in 1944 but they refused to admit it. This made sure millions of Germans died for no good reason. The last 8 months of the war were completely pointless and gained Germany no advantage whatsoever.
There was no room for terms in the unconditional surrender the Allies were asking for. As for the German leaders, you have to consider what opinions they had on the Kaiser's decision in 1919.
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  #305  
Old 19 Feb 12, 21:29
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Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
Just because they were too stupid to recognise defeat does not negate the scale of the defeat. The body was still twitching in 1945 but it was mortaly wounded in 1943.
I hear the sound of straws being grasped..............
Are you confusing the political leadership with the Soldiers in the field?
Deliberately?
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  #306  
Old 19 Feb 12, 22:14
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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Are you confusing the political leadership with the Soldiers in the field?
Deliberately?
A fish rots from the head down.

I call any man stupid who fights to promote a system that is destroying his country and as a consequence inflicts unecesary casualties of at least 1 million on his own people.
Make a cogent case that this is not so without resorting to trite phrases like 'duty', 'honour' or 'fatherland'.
There really does come a point when resistence is futile and the umpteen millions of civilians caught in the crossfire should be allowed the choice of surrender instead of dying so as to conform to an insane soldier's ideas of glory and a 'heroes' death.
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  #307  
Old 19 Feb 12, 23:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
A fish rots from the head down.
So do people, and civilizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
I call any man stupid who fights to promote a system that is destroying his country and as a consequence inflicts unecesary casualties of at least 1 million on his own people.
Make a cogent case that this is not so without resorting to trite phrases like 'duty', 'honour' or 'fatherland'.
Trite?
I'm not ready to hold those concepts in contempt.
But, I'm not a Leftist, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
There really does come a point when resistence is futile and the umpteen millions of civilians caught in the crossfire should be allowed the choice of surrender instead of dying so as to conform to an insane soldier's ideas of glory and a 'heroes' death.
Yes, there does, that is actually an excellent point, and one that has been a serious source of good discussion ever since WW2 all over the world.And that is one instance where they undeniably should have done so. In fact, some of them tried.
... remember how that Tom Cruise movie about that little event was mocked?
I am also hoping that my own nation's military can't be used to destroy my life and property on the whim of some Manchurian Candidate.

But where do we draw the line? The media tells us that every war is immoral when there is a President they don't like in office, or they try to get us into weird and bogus causes like Somalia or Darfur.

This is important and cogent to our lives here and now;
In an age where the education system teaches that morality is judgmental and stupid, where only the most brutal and violent religion is not mocked daily, and where a new version of history is adopted every year.... where are people supposed to get their moral compass from?
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  #308  
Old 20 Feb 12, 13:25
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You have me all wrong. I thought you were another member here, a known jester who likes to stir the pot. By backing the Nazi soldiers and yet calling yourself BO I thought it was just a sly poke at some of us here. For that I am truly sorry and will make no reference to it again.

However, your opinion on the Nazi's stinks imo .
Ok, fair enough. Just to let it be known i have no desire to cause any argument, and i don't call myself BO, it's Bravo Zero.

I am quite confused about the term 'Nazi soldiers'?. I thought the real Nazis were the members of the elected NSDAP?. Nazi being a shortened term for Nationalsozialistische Deutche Arbeiterpartei, while the Wehrmacht were just ordinary Soldiers, Sailers and Airmen who had to swear oath of loyalty to Hitler?
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  #309  
Old 20 Feb 12, 20:06
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Originally Posted by Bravo Zero View Post
Ok, fair enough. Just to let it be known i have no desire to cause any argument, and i don't call myself BO, it's Bravo Zero.

I am quite confused about the term 'Nazi soldiers'?. I thought the real Nazis were the members of the elected NSDAP?. Nazi being a shortened term for Nationalsozialistische Deutche Arbeiterpartei, while the Wehrmacht were just ordinary Soldiers, Sailers and Airmen who had to swear oath of loyalty to Hitler?
Or BZ to his friends!! lcm1
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  #310  
Old 22 Feb 12, 23:23
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Originally Posted by Bravo Zero View Post
I am quite confused about the term 'Nazi soldiers'?. I thought the real Nazis were the members of the elected NSDAP?. Nazi being a shortened term for Nationalsozialistische Deutche Arbeiterpartei, while the Wehrmacht were just ordinary Soldiers, Sailers and Airmen who had to swear oath of loyalty to Hitler?
Not many members of the Wehrmacht were card-carrying Nazis, B0, just de facto ones.

At one stage in the 1930s it seemed possible that the Army was going to be replaced by Ernst Roehm's SA as the chief 'men at arms' organization in Germany.

But Hitler did a deal with the Army to look the other way during the Night of the Long Knives and win their loyalty.

It was a mutual love affair between the blue-collar Austrian and the Prussian nobles.

He got to be overall commander, they get lots of new recruits and toys, and they could go on and break the Treaty of Versailles together.
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  #311  
Old 23 Feb 12, 01:49
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Originally Posted by clackers View Post
Not many members of the Wehrmacht were card-carrying Nazis, B0, just de facto ones.

At one stage in the 1930s it seemed possible that the Army was going to be replaced by Ernst Roehm's SA as the chief 'men at arms' organization in Germany.

But Hitler did a deal with the Army to look the other way during the Night of the Long Knives and win their loyalty.

It was a mutual love affair between the blue-collar Austrian and the Prussian nobles.

He got to be overall commander, they get lots of new recruits and toys, and they could go on and break the Treaty of Versailles together.
Many of the soldiers were not saints by any means, many went into the fight and with their eyes wide open..the sensless slaughter of innocents and to even defend them is IMO..
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  #312  
Old 23 Feb 12, 09:28
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The general consensus seems to be that German officers and NCOs were the best in the world. This cadre of superb officers and NCOs gave the Germans the edge over their opponents in early victories.

As you know, during the 1930s Germany was limited to an army of only 100,000 soldiers.

Because of this limitation, the entry requirements for professional soldiers trying to gain admission into the army were very strict and only the best candidates were accepted. The ones that gained entry received superb training and they became the leadership core of the army.

German conscripts were not that different from English or French constricts and they often lacked training and experience. However, they were well-treated and well-paid (the best pay in European armies at the time) and given generous home leave so their morale was high.

In contrast, the French army which was supposed to be the best in the world, had brutally low pay and impoverished living conditions for ordinary soldiers. Drunkenness and poor discipline were very common.

French train stations even had special sober-up rooms were drunk men in uniform could go to pass out while waiting for the train so they wouldn't stagger all over the platform with civilians looking on.
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  #313  
Old 23 Feb 12, 10:02
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Poor discipline and drunkenness also were found in the WM in september 1939,drunkenness can be found in all armies .
And,the drunkenness and poor discipline did not prevent the French from bitter fighting in may/june 1940.
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Old 23 Feb 12, 11:11
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Poor discipline and drunkenness also were found in the WM in september 1939,drunkenness can be found in all armies .
And,the drunkenness and poor discipline did not prevent the French from bitter fighting in may/june 1940.
I heard a different version of the story. I heard that there was widespread defeatism throughout the French army, starting with commander-in-chief Maurice Gamelin and going down the ranks. The French primer minister referred to Gamelin as a "gutless philosopher", a terrible thing to say about your own CIC.

I heard that in the French society at the time, political disunity was so bad the communists and leftists were seen as a greater evil compared to the Germans. The French middle class would have rather welcomed German soldiers in their cities.

This will always be a controversial subject.
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  #315  
Old 23 Feb 12, 13:51
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I doubt that the French PM was saying this about Gamelin,because the French PM (Daladier) was responsible for the nomination of Gamelin as army chief before the war .Probably,the critique came from Reynaud (a strong enemy of Daladier)
OTOH,it also is true that Gamelin was no good as army commander:he was some one without civil courage (as the Germans were saying) :no backbone,that's why the politicians had chosen him :he never was making problems.
Gamelin always was evading his responsability ,he would have been better doing as a politician.
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