Was the German Army (Heer) really so superior?

[ShAA]

Originally Posted by lcm1

I'm a lover of 'good' poetry and that certainly falls into that category,he sounds a bit 'Kiplinish' do you know Kiplins 'Recessional'? A lot of people do not know that those Famous words "Lest we forget" come from that poem. lcm1

Interesting, I haven't heard of it and that this phrase came from this poem!

I've read a literature essay about Kipling's influences on Soviet poetry of the 20-30s. For all his jingoism and natural anti-Communism, he appeared to be a kindred spirit for many poets who were ardent revolutionaries. Romanticism of battle, exotics of faraway lands, sense of duty and comradeship, loyalty to the cause and all other traditional masculine virtues came very close to the hearts of those who had gone through the First World War and the Civil War, went to China and Spain as volunteers and hoped for a new bright future for mankind. However curious it might be, Kipling's impact of early Soviet poetry is hard to deny.

[The Exorcist]

(in his time, a Copybook was used to practice hand-writing. At the top of most pages were basic truths... now banned from schools, the poem tells why)

[lcm1]

Originally Posted by ShAA

Interesting, I haven't heard of it and that this phrase came from this poem!

I've read a literature essay about Kipling's influences on Soviet poetry of the 20-30s. For all his jingoism and natural anti-Communism, he appeared to be a kindred spirit for many poets who were ardent revolutionaries. Romanticism of battle, exotics of faraway lands, sense of duty and comradeship, loyalty to the cause and all other traditional masculine virtues came very close to the hearts of those who had gone through the First World War and the Civil War, went to China and Spain as volunteers and hoped for a new bright future for mankind. However curious it might be, Kipling's impact of early Soviet poetry is hard to deny.

He was extremely Victorian in his outlook on life and the British in battle. The poem was also set to music in honour of Queen Victoria's reign. The verse reffering to 'Lest we forget' is as follows.........

For heathen hosts that put their trust in reeking tube and iron shard,
and valiant dust that builds on dust,
and guarding calls not for to guard, judge of the nations spare us yet,
Lest we forget,Lest we forget.
lcm1

[Gencallan]

I think they were well trained & dedicated soldiers but once Hitler took over control of them, they were led by a Looney Tune. Bad tactics from the top leadership, fighting on to many fronts. I met one in a bar in Berlin, he said they were the best army in the world. What would it have been like if Hitler hadn't attacked the Soviet Union?
I voted them best just because I've known Germans and they were a strong, unrelenting race of people?

[ljadw]

This is a good joke .
You did meet some one who claimed to be a veteran(if he was one,what were the chances he ever saw an enemy) and said they were the best army in the world :do you expected him saying an other thing,as :we were an average army ?
And,about Hitler being a Looney Tune :that's the old 1945 excuse :if we lost,it is because of Hitler .

[lcm1]

Originally Posted by ljadw

This is a good joke .
You did meet some one who claimed to be a veteran(if he was one,what were the chances he ever saw an enemy) and said they were the best army in the world :do you expected him saying an other thing,as :we were an average army ?
And,about Hitler being a Looney Tune :that's the old 1945 excuse :if we lost,it is because of Hitler .

What is this 'claiming' to be a veteran? Most veterans I have ever met do not have to 'claim' (the mere word casts a shadow of doubt) and no one who is not a veteran themselves has any right to cast that shadow for most men that have seen Active service also have proof such as campaign medals etc: and it is the active service that makes a veteran whatever his job may have been active service makes him a veteran. In some jobs in a battalion such as clerical or even cooking the person may only see the enemy as POWs but that does not make him unable to form an opinion as to the quality of an Army. The same as many people on this forum form an opinion even if that opinion is only formed from the pages of a book. I hasten to say that I am NOT insinuating that you are one of those 'experts' I have no idea what your background is in these matters, that is your business unless you wish to do otherwise,I am merely making a point. Cheers, lcm1

[ljadw]

Well,Gencallan said :I met one in a bar .
How can he be sure the man was a veteran ? Because the man said so ? That's not enough .
I am suspicious about a person saying :we were the best army in the world,while that army was totally defeated .
If you were a German veteran,would you say in a bar to a stranger :we were the best army in the world,knowing what happened on 8 may 1945 ?

[D1J1]

Originally Posted by Gencallan

What would it have been like if Hitler hadn't attacked the Soviet Union?
I voted them best just because I've known Germans and they were a strong, unrelenting race of people?

A couple of points. First, the entire ratzi plan was based on lebensraum to the east and the subsequent destruction of their perceived worst enemy, communism. That invasion, once they get power in Germany, is a foregone conclusion.

Second, the Germans are not a race. They were, last time I looked, Caucasian. That is a race.

Regards,
Dennis

[lcm1]

Originally Posted by ljadw

This is a good joke .
You did meet some one who claimed to be a veteran(if he was one,what were the chances he ever saw an enemy) and said they were the best army in the world :do you expected him saying an other thing,as :we were an average army ?
And,about Hitler being a Looney Tune :that's the old 1945 excuse :if we lost,it is because of Hitler .

You must question anybody in a bar that says a thing like that, he is probably 'fishing' for a free beer!! lcm1

[The Exorcist]

[Von Richter]

Was the German Army (Heer) really so superior?... only if WW2 had have gone to penalties.

[Bravo Zero]

Originally Posted by ljadw

If you were a German veteran,would you say in a bar to a stranger :we were the best army in the world,knowing what happened on 8 may 1945 ?

And how many countries did it take to make the 8th may surrender possible?

It took millions of soldiers from all the world powers and years of fighting to bring down the Wehrmacht and the SS. That says to me that they were one of the best, but people are afraid to admit it because they were loyal to both a nationalist and a racialist regime. Had they been fighting in the name of democracy they would of been praised to no end for being the most respectable fighters of the 20th century!

They had suffered an honourable defeat, a defeat that was inevitable, but had done as much fighting as they could to prevent it.

[RichardS]

Rabid animals are hard to put down too. Does that make a rabid animal praiseworthy? No, the Wehrmacht and SS fought to the bitter end because they knew what was going to happen when their crimes was discovered. And remember the Heer, SS and Luftwaffe to a lesser extent required a lot of foreign volunteers. Does a Latvian, Dane or Hiwi in a German uniform suddenly make his a super soldier?

[Nick the Noodle]

Originally Posted by Bravo Zero

And how many countries did it take to make the 8th may surrender possible?

One. The Soviets could have done it by themselves. The US could definitely have done it by 6.8.45 without sending one troop over to Europe. If you read this and this it more than appears that just by hanging on the UK would have beaten the Nazis as well.

Originally Posted by Bravo Zero

It took millions of soldiers from all the world powers and years of fighting to bring down the Wehrmacht and the SS. That says to me that they were one of the best, but people are afraid to admit it because they were loyal to both a nationalist and a racialist regime. Had they been fighting in the name of democracy they would of been praised to no end for being the most respectable fighters of the 20th century!

Racialist? But the Nazi's were not Nationalistic. They gassed German WW1 iron cross recipients just for being the wrong religeon.

Originally Posted by Bravo Zero

They had suffered an honourable defeat, a defeat that was inevitable, but had done as much fighting as they could to prevent it.

Define honourable defeat?

However, with a name like B0 I suspect you may not be all you appear.

[m kenny]

Originally Posted by Bravo Zero

And how many countries did it take to make the 8th may surrender possible?

It took millions of soldiers from all the world powers and years of fighting to bring down the Wehrmacht and the SS.

That is a misreading of the true situation.
The reason the Germans had so many enemies is because they attacked them and thus they 'made' millions of enemies. Where you and the other fanbois go wrong is to assume this Allied army was assembled because it was 'known' they would need a massive supperiority to overcome the uber-soldiers. The Soviets were doing quite well on their own and nothing suggests they could not have finished the job themselves if they had too. Like any other sensible nation they did not spurn the help offered by others.

Originally Posted by Bravo Zero

That says to me that they were one of the best, but people are afraid to admit it because they were loyal to both a nationalist and a racialist regime. Had they been fighting in the name of democracy they would of been praised to no end for being the most respectable fighters of the 20th century!

Well they certainly were stupid.
By 1943 their defeat was inevitable. Any sensible person would have sought terms. By mid 1944 the end no longer deniable even to the most rabid SS pervert. In truth they were beaten in 1944 but they refused to admit it. This made sure millions of Germans died for no good reason. The last 8 months of the war were completely pointless and gained Germany no advantage whatsoever. It is incomprehensible to me why the fanbois considers the senseless deaths of so many for no good purpose is something we should all sit back and applaud.

Originally Posted by Bravo Zero

They had suffered an honourable defeat, a defeat that was inevitable, but had done as much fighting as they could to prevent it.

As I said even the true believers realised defeat was inevitable.
And I hate to prick your balloon but more than a hundred of German Divisions surrendered fairly intact. Outside of the cocoon of the madman and his loyal henchmen in Berlin the rest of the Army could not surrender fast enough. Some of the fastest 'advances' in history were made by Eastern Front German 'Elite' Units running as fast as they could westward.