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  #1  
Old 12 Aug 13, 14:59
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The new Chinese carrier under construction

See attached for pcis of the Chinese carrier under construction. It may have electromagnetic catapults.


http://thediplomat.com/the-naval-dip...raft-carriers/
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File Type: jpg CV-001A%20maybe.jpg (142.1 KB, 43 views)
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  #2  
Old 21 Aug 13, 17:35
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
See attached for pcis of the Chinese carrier under construction. It may have electromagnetic catapults.


http://thediplomat.com/the-naval-dip...raft-carriers/
It was only a matter of time Don. I wonder how the Japanese will react?
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Old 22 Aug 13, 07:20
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looks like the cables located behind my home theater system....maybe they will at least have decent entertainment system on board for their sailors..!
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Old 22 Aug 13, 09:40
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
It was only a matter of time Don. I wonder how the Japanese will react?
The Japanese may amend their constitution (finally). However, they are on the wrong fiscal end of an arms race though.

The most economical way for the Japanese (and US) is to fund the Philippine Military to a couple of billion $$ a year (say the money we give to Egypt). It will dillute Chinese military assets into facing two fronts. Nevertheless, the Chinese forces has enough assets to seriously threaten anything on the first island chain.
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Old 22 Aug 13, 21:38
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
The Japanese may amend their constitution (finally). However, they are on the wrong fiscal end of an arms race though.

The most economical way for the Japanese (and US) is to fund the Philippine Military to a couple of billion $$ a year (say the money we give to Egypt). It will dillute Chinese military assets into facing two fronts. Nevertheless, the Chinese forces has enough assets to seriously threaten anything on the first island chain.
It looks like it at least being discussed Don.

Quote:
Last week the world remembered the end of the war in the Pacific, and Japan's surrender on what become known as V-J Day. But many Japanese have never really accepted the terms of that surrender, and especially the constitution forced on Japan by the Americans after the war. Now the ruling party says Japan needs to revise its constitution to boost the country's confidence and pride. Critics say the proposed revisions would be a major setback for Japanese democracy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=213578220
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Old 22 Aug 13, 22:37
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
The Japanese may amend their constitution (finally). However, they are on the wrong fiscal end of an arms race though.

The most economical way for the Japanese (and US) is to fund the Philippine Military to a couple of billion $$ a year (say the money we give to Egypt). It will dillute Chinese military assets into facing two fronts. Nevertheless, the Chinese forces has enough assets to seriously threaten anything on the first island chain.
I would say Taiwan and Korea are better bets for adding funding for naval forces. Both have pretty sizable navies and a decent naval tradition; the Philippines doesn't.
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Old 22 Aug 13, 22:56
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I would say Taiwan and Korea are better bets for adding funding for naval forces. Both have pretty sizable navies and a decent naval tradition; the Philippines doesn't.
Yeah, but they did kill Magellan at the height of Portuguese/Spanish seapower.
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  #8  
Old 22 Aug 13, 23:50
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
Yeah, but they did kill Magellan at the height of Portuguese/Spanish seapower.
That's not a seafaring thing... That was just smart. After all, the Spanish and Portugese make the English, French, etc., look like choir boys when it comes to colonization.
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Old 23 Aug 13, 00:58
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Obviously the Chinese havenít gotten the word that carriers are obsolete. Maybe they should exchange information between their armed services.
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Old 23 Aug 13, 09:56
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I would say Taiwan and Korea are better bets for adding funding for naval forces. Both have pretty sizable navies and a decent naval tradition; the Philippines doesn't.
You don't need a navy to effectively deny the use of the first island chain. A credible airforce with substantial ELINT and maritime strike capability will suffice.

As for Korea, they have a lot more issues with the Japanese than they have with the Chinese (that whole colonialism thing). Taiwan is a political non-starter. But the Philippines is fine. Providing military aid to make their military forces comparable to 2nd tier Nato forces (Greece, Spain, Poland) will give China some pause and force them to divert significant forces south. Right now there is simply no one in their southern flank that will give them a bloody nose.
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Old 23 Aug 13, 09:58
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Obviously the Chinese havenít gotten the word that carriers are obsolete. Maybe they should exchange information between their armed services.
The Chinese are pursuing a dual strategy: area denial/anti-access and power projection in pursue of soft power. You need the carrier for the latter.
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Old 26 Aug 13, 05:08
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
The Chinese are pursuing a dual strategy: area denial/anti-access and power projection in pursue of soft power. You need the carrier for the latter.
that's true, carriers still have a large amount to play in future conflicts and power projection roles...
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Old 27 Aug 13, 20:22
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
You don't need a navy to effectively deny the use of the first island chain. A credible airforce with substantial ELINT and maritime strike capability will suffice.

As for Korea, they have a lot more issues with the Japanese than they have with the Chinese (that whole colonialism thing). Taiwan is a political non-starter. But the Philippines is fine. Providing military aid to make their military forces comparable to 2nd tier Nato forces (Greece, Spain, Poland) will give China some pause and force them to divert significant forces south. Right now there is simply no one in their southern flank that will give them a bloody nose.
Don, from my own research I would have to say that Beijing is in fact in the process burning the bridges that would facilitate its own retreat in its dealings with its neighbors, the Koreans included. It is my opinion that the Beijing's regime covetous attempts at controlling territory that in many cases it has weak or in fact no claim to are beginning to sour relations with its neighbors.

I find China's military buildup to be quite ominous. While I do not believe that China is seeking open warfare, I tend to believe that its military buildup is designed to be intimidating. In naval warfare the term "fleet in being" is used to describe a military force does not need to be actively used to achieve its purpose. I believe that China is trying to achieve exactly that, armed forces that are so intimidating that their very existence intimidates China's neighbors and competitors in compliance or retreat.

There is quite a bit of truth in your statement however I personally believe that there is no benefit to be gained in deferring to Beijing. In fact it is my opinion that deferring to China has reached the point that was reached by Prime Minister Chamberlain when he constantly deferred to Hitler; rather than gaining the peace with honor that he so desperately desired he merely encouraged further aggression because Nazi Germany came to believe that the Allies lacked the resolve to stop Hitlerís aggressive ambitions. This is just one more reason why China cannot and should not be trusted.

Quote:
China's Passport Map Controversy: The intransigence of territorial ...
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...page-1/‎
China's Passport Map Controversy: The intransigence of territorial ambitions. by Dr. K R Bolton. November 26, 2012.
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Old 28 Aug 13, 14:26
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Don, from my own research I would have to say that Beijing is in fact in the process burning the bridges that would facilitate its own retreat in its dealings with its neighbors, the Koreans included. It is my opinion that the Beijing's regime covetous attempts at controlling territory that in many cases it has weak or in fact no claim to are beginning to sour relations with its neighbors.

I find China's military buildup to be quite ominous. While I do not believe that China is seeking open warfare, I tend to believe that its military buildup is designed to be intimidating. In naval warfare the term "fleet in being" is used to describe a military force does not need to be actively used to achieve its purpose. I believe that China is trying to achieve exactly that, armed forces that are so intimidating that their very existence intimidates China's neighbors and competitors in compliance or retreat.

There is quite a bit of truth in your statement however I personally believe that there is no benefit to be gained in deferring to Beijing. In fact it is my opinion that deferring to China has reached the point that was reached by Prime Minister Chamberlain when he constantly deferred to Hitler; rather than gaining the peace with honor that he so desperately desired he merely encouraged further aggression because Nazi Germany came to believe that the Allies lacked the resolve to stop Hitlerís aggressive ambitions. This is just one more reason why China cannot and should not be trusted.
Here is my 2 cents on this:

During its Warring States period, there is a Chinese strategy called the "Horizontal Alliance". This strategy is basically an alliance of states that are far away from each other, both supporting each other at the expense of states that areg eographically close to them. IMO, this is what China is doing and, to them, it is largely irrelevant that they are "burning bridges" with their immediate neighbors.

Consider the fact that Chinese foreign aid and investments are very popular in places that we have largely neglected: South American and Africa. At a time when we are cutting aid, the Chinese are increasing theirs. In some of these countries, they have basically cornered the market is their number one trade partner. In addition, the growth of Chinese purchasing power has rocketted them to the number one export destination finished products of the EU as well as the reason for the resource boom of Sub-Saharan Africa to Australia.

A conflict with the Chinese will effectively hurt if not shut down the world economy. When the people of these countries that rely on trade with China are laid off and unemployed, they will not care if China takes over a bunch of uninhabited rocks. And these people have a lot of electoral power over their government.

But it will not come to that. The Chinese are far too clever to get suckered into a shooting war now. They are in it for the long haul. The Chinese don't have to do much except wait until we defeat ourselves with deficit spending and national debt to the point we can't afford a military big enough to challenge them. Once we are gone, who is going to stop them?

The greatest victories are won without fighting and the Chinese are winning.
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Old 28 Aug 13, 21:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
Here is my 2 cents on this:

During its Warring States period, there is a Chinese strategy called the "Horizontal Alliance". This strategy is basically an alliance of states that are far away from each other, both supporting each other at the expense of states that areg eographically close to them. IMO, this is what China is doing and, to them, it is largely irrelevant that they are "burning bridges" with their immediate neighbors.

Consider the fact that Chinese foreign aid and investments are very popular in places that we have largely neglected: South American and Africa. At a time when we are cutting aid, the Chinese are increasing theirs. In some of these countries, they have basically cornered the market is their number one trade partner. In addition, the growth of Chinese purchasing power has rocketted them to the number one export destination finished products of the EU as well as the reason for the resource boom of Sub-Saharan Africa to Australia.

A conflict with the Chinese will effectively hurt if not shut down the world economy. When the people of these countries that rely on trade with China are laid off and unemployed, they will not care if China takes over a bunch of uninhabited rocks. And these people have a lot of electoral power over their government.

But it will not come to that. The Chinese are far too clever to get suckered into a shooting war now. They are in it for the long haul. The Chinese don't have to do much except wait until we defeat ourselves with deficit spending and national debt to the point we can't afford a military big enough to challenge them. Once we are gone, who is going to stop them?

The greatest victories are won without fighting and the Chinese are winning.
The problem with that, if they are doing it, is that both South America and Africa are mostly economic basket cases and that is not likely to change anytime soon. Neither continent has any real military power outside local operations and none of these nations is really capable of even self-defense if seriously challenged.

The Chinese are deficit spending too; big time. It is largely hidden because of the nature of their government much as it was with the USSR or Third Reich.

The US' biggest enemy is Progressivism that wants a European style social welfare state. The cost of that precludes any real military power and having any capacity to project force far from home. Europe is that way today.
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