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  #31  
Old 02 Jan 12, 06:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
You forgot to mention seductive spies...
To be fair the KGB had a very good track record of that...
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  #32  
Old 02 Jan 12, 07:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
So what? Does it entitle the US to act as an obnoxious t**t, self-righteously lecturing Russia off a high horse?
There is obnoxious about the criticism.
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  #33  
Old 02 Jan 12, 08:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
For what it's worth, I actually think this may be true about McCain. Certainly does explain some things about him...
I multiple times stated, that problem isn't in McCan.
Problem in the language Putin used.
Actually problem in language Putin allowed himself to use.
There are/were obnoxious members of the Russian Duma
like Zhirinovsky , or Shandybin, but I don't remember any American
President, or Secretary of State descending to picking with them
on their street level.
Believe me, I am not a too sensitive person and can use all
"nuances" of Russian language, but when the leader of the great
country is trying to make plain rudeness ( it wasn't the first time )
a style of national politics , it's too much
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Last edited by RS116; 02 Jan 12 at 09:25..
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  #34  
Old 02 Jan 12, 08:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
Just something nobody that has not professionally examined him is qualified to speak on, regardless of the topic or situation being discussed.
If politicians of both countries have to be
professionally examined ,
we all would live in much better and safer world.

If I am not mistaken this guy was a vice speaker of the Russian Duma,
presidential candidate
and still he is leader of the 3 biggest party in Russia.

About America


About Ploand


About Britain
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Last edited by RS116; 02 Jan 12 at 09:36..
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  #35  
Old 02 Jan 12, 09:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
To be fair the KGB had a very good track record of that...
Sorry to burst your bubble, Cope...but the myth of the seductive Soviet/Russian spy is simply that...a myth. Here is a small sampling of several bewitching Soviet spies from days past....

Elizabeth Zarubina


Ruth Greenglass


Kitty Harris


Lona Cohen


Ruth Werner


Mind you, very doubtful all British spies look like Sean Connery, Roger Moore and Daniel Craig. I suspect something more like this

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  #36  
Old 02 Jan 12, 10:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
And I've already answered you quite clearly that I do not take into consideration fringe wackos which do not represent anyone. I'm not bringing up whatever www.ihr.org, various American Nazi groups or David Duke say about Russia. Just like you shouldn't bring up political freaks who have no influence either on Russian politics or Russian media.
Which gives you a possibility to reject any sample
I will provide , by simply calling him/her a wacko.


I also didn't bring Russian Nazi groups like
RNE ( Russian National Unity ) etc.
In this case we are even.

You want to equate actual politicians
like Prokhanov and Dugin , to the marginal
American groups like American Nazi groups or David Duke.
It isn't correct.
Like I stated, American Nazi groups play the same role like
RNE etc.
But you are trying to expand marginalization of RNE, or skinheads
up to the level of Russian politicians, who are closer to mainstream
of Russia.

By the way some authors consider even Zhirinovsky's party LDPR -
a fascists party.
http://www1.ku-eichstaett.de/ZIMOS/f...cs/Umland6.pdf

Not that I am disagree with you calling them wackos.
But IMO first of all we have to take in consideration
is their real influence, whether they are wackos, or not.
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  #37  
Old 02 Jan 12, 10:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble, Cope...but the myth of the seductive Soviet/Russian spy is simply that...a myth. Here is a small sampling of several bewitching Soviet spies from days past....

Lona Cohen
Age makes changes.



I am just reading a book about Soviet Nuclear Spies,
including Cohen Family and
Lona Cohen described like a really charming, the quality
she used to use in her work.
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Last edited by RS116; 02 Jan 12 at 10:18..
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  #38  
Old 02 Jan 12, 10:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Er..yes..sorry about that, John. Putin, speaking about McCain, is stating that he suspects McCain may have gotten a screw loose while he was holed up in the Hanoi Hilton.

I believe that there were also definite "whisper campaigns" by the Bush campaign in 2000 claiming this, especially in the South Carolina primary. As I recall, this was recalled in the movie/documentary "Bush's Brain".

Excerpt from wikipedia article on McCain 200 campaign, then link to article.

South Carolina

The battle between Bush and McCain for South Carolina has entered American political lore as one of the nastiest, dirtiest, and most brutal ever.[14][48][49] On the one hand, Bush switched his label for himself from "compassionate conservative" to "reformer with results", as part of trying to co-opt McCain's popular message of reform.[14][50][51] On the other hand, a variety of business and interest groups that McCain had challenged in the past now pounded him with negative ads.[14][52]
The day that a new poll showed McCain five points ahead in the state,[53] Bush allied himself on stage with a marginal and controversial veterans activist named J. Thomas Burch, who accused McCain of having "abandoned the veterans" on POW/MIA and Agent Orange issues: "He came home from Vietnam and forgot us."[14][53] Incensed,[53] McCain ran ads accusing Bush of lying and comparing the governor to Bill Clinton,[14] which Bush complained was "about as low a blow as you can give in a Republican primary."[14] An unidentified party began a semi-underground smear campaign against McCain, delivered by push polls, faxes, e-mails, flyers, audience plants, and the like.[14][54] These claimed most famously that he had fathered a black child out of wedlock (the McCains' dark-skinned daughter Bridget was adopted from Bangladesh; this misrepresentation was thought to be an especially effective slur in a Deep South state where race was still central[49]), but also that his wife Cindy was a drug addict, that he was a homosexual, and that he was a "Manchurian Candidate" traitor or mentally unstable from his North Vietnam POW days.[14][48] The Bush campaign strongly denied any involvement with these attacks;[48] Bush said he would fire anyone who ran defamatory push polls.[55] During a break in a debate, Bush put his hand on McCain's arm and reiterated that he had no involvement in the attacks; McCain replied, "Don't give me that ****. And take your hands off me."[47]
Bush mobilized the state's evangelical voters,[14][24] and leading conservative broadcaster Rush Limbaugh entered the fray supporting Bush and going on at length about how McCain was a favorite of liberal Democrats.[56] Polls swung in Bush's favor; by not accepting federal matching funds for his campaign, Bush was not limited in how much money he could spend on advertisements, while McCain was near his limit.[56] With three days to go, McCain shut down his negative ads against Bush and tried to stress a positive image.[56] But McCain's stressing of campaign finance reform, and how Bush's proposed tax cuts would benefit the wealthy, did not appeal to core Republicans in the state.[24]
McCain lost South Carolina on February 19, with 42 percent of the vote against Bush's 53 percent,[57] allowing Bush to regain the momentum.[57]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mc...campaign,_2000

Last edited by lakechampainer; 02 Jan 12 at 10:36..
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  #39  
Old 02 Jan 12, 10:53
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Quote:
Consciously Repeat a lie it's like lie by yourself.
Each of us at least couple of times in our life
repeated somebodies lies ( including mass media lies)
without knowing about it.
Moreover FOX even did not say directly,
that losses were 60,000,00.
They stated something softer like
Joseph Stalin is blamed for up to sixty million deaths.,
which is correct.
He was blamed.
Were these blames correct, or not is the different issue.
But he was blamed.
And not in America, in Russia.
There is a enormous difference between you or me and Fox. They are watched by more people than we were talk with in our entire life. We know both that the majority of people will not pay attention to such little details. The only words that will be remembered will be Stalin adn 60 millions. They had the possibility to say : Stalin is blamed for 2 millions to 60 millions deaths. It will be far more correct. But they simply made a chain with Russia - Stalin - 60 millions.


Quote:
It is the point were we ( you and shaa ) and me don't have common
ground for discussion.
We have the same issue in a few different threads, including
"A different view of history" and some thread in Russia Forum.
You both want in the same time to be my opponents and judges
how relevant are the facts I am going to provide.
Which gives you a possibility to reject any fact I will present.
Such situation of course does not satisfy me.
So we got stuck here.
I many times proved here different
names of Russian politicians,
showmen, authors etc and each time it
was rejected, or on basics that
not all Russians watch TV, or because they
were named idiots, who does not deserve any attention,
or because it was claimed that they have rather marginal audience.
So whatever samples I am going to provide will not satisfy you,
IMO simply because you don't want to see it.
Sorry but there is a world of difference between "Odnako" and Fox. One is just a clown who didn't had any influence and who isn't taken seriously even in Russia itself. On the other side Fox is far more influential. Just look at the numbers of the people using Fox as the source on those forums. In Russia everybody knows how c***** the state television is.


Quote:
The lie is lie, the rhetoric is rhetoric.
If we are going to consider all Cold War rhetoric a lie,
will have to name everything is said on Russian TV by
Leontiev,
Maxim Shevchanko,
Prokhanov,
sometimes Pushkov and 3-4 other "politologists"
a chronicle lie.
Once again they didn't had the influence Fox had. And everybody know their game and don't take it seriously.


Quote:
1.
People for hundred of years had developed diplomatic etiquette for
reasons.
The leader of the state has to use polite language
not the teenager street gang slang.
There are plenty of possibilities to express somebodies feelings
using internationally accepted language.
And if Putin consider himself above commonly accepted rules ,
just for sake to show how tough he is, and allowed himself use
street offense it is idiotic from his side.
Plain and simple.
Whatever McCain had said, he was not personally offensive.
So when Putin could not find anything better that insults,
it just put him below McCain.
Putin is used to be rude sometimes it's sure. But in this case I don't see anything rude or really impolite in his answer. It's obvious that the mental state of McCain only deteriorated after his "vacation" in Vietnam.


Quote:
2.
Could you please provide a link on original English text of McCain's speeches.
I swear, I won't ask for anything more.
So far you provided even not Russian translation ( which I still would not
rely on very much ) , you provided Russian comments of the small (4-5 words ) taken out of context pieces of his speeches.
So far I have an impression, that Russian media is trying to
make McCain a strawman on the Cold war.
Let alone the fact, that his real political
influence even among Republicans is near 0
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...n-via-twitter/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...m-corner-hell/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=574Kg...layer_embedded

Troling Putin on twitter, say that a head of state must burn in hell, talk about the threat from the SU... Really good attitude and political knowlede from someone who wanted to become the American prisedent. But if it was only McCain, everything will be ok. Buth there is millions of people like him. On the forums you have many examples of them. You have dozens of posts with Putin beingg called modern Stalin, posts about Russian threat, any will to make the destinction between Russia/Soviet Union and so on.
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  #40  
Old 02 Jan 12, 13:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Sorry but there is a world of difference between "Odnako" and Fox. One is just a clown who didn't had any influence and who isn't taken seriously even in Russia itself.
The very fact, that he has his show on the 1st
Russian government channel
in prime time, says by itself that he is taken seriously.
But his political activity is not limited just by TV.
Below is the video, where he participates the yearly gathering of
government supporting youth organization on the Seliger Lake.
His role is to teach and brainwash young people there.



For those who does not know Russian.
Leontiev we are speaking about , is the only unshaved freak there.

You also will see a funny propaganda trick.
Person is asked question about whom is Putin thinking
and this person is asked get into box with the mirrors inside.


http://www.fadm.gov.ru/special/fednews/11463/

http://c-society.ru/wind.php?ID=347590

Вместе с ребятами на Селигер приехал журналист и писатель Михаил Леонтьев. Днем он читал лекции, а вечером отправлялся отдыхать вместе со всеми.

Together with the folks on Seliger came author and journalist
Michel Leontiev.
During the daytime he delivered the lectures,
at night he had a fun with the crowd.



Putin on the same gathering



Leontiev also is quite active with his propaganda on the Internet and paper media.

His opinion about last election fraud meetings

http://kabinet3d.ru/news/1350-Mihail...-kokc-v-klubah

Michele Leontiev also delivered speech on such high level forum as
Strategy 2020, which was participated by now former, then acting
Head of president Administration V. Surkov.

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  #41  
Old 02 Jan 12, 13:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble, Cope...but the myth of the seductive Soviet/Russian spy is simply that...a myth. Here is a small sampling of several bewitching Soviet spies from days past....

Elizabeth Zarubina


Ruth Greenglass


Kitty Harris


Lona Cohen


Ruth Werner


Mind you, very doubtful all British spies look like Sean Connery, Roger Moore and Daniel Craig. I suspect something more like this

It is not a myth at all. The KGB honey trap was a very common and often fallen for practice to blackmail all sorts of people in to handing over information at various levels. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book.
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Old 02 Jan 12, 15:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS116 View Post
Which gives you a possibility to reject any sample
I will provide , by simply calling him/her a wacko.
Look, you can complain all you want and stretch your comparison to the limits, but until you bring up some solid proof that these guys influence the country's politics, there's no reason to consider them policy makers.

Quote:
I also didn't bring Russian Nazi groups like
RNE ( Russian National Unity ) etc.
In this case we are even.

You want to equate actual politicians
like Prokhanov and Dugin , to the marginal
American groups like American Nazi groups or David Duke.
It isn't correct.
Like I stated, American Nazi groups play the same role like
RNE etc.
But you are trying to expand marginalization of RNE, or skinheads
up to the level of Russian politicians, who are closer to mainstream
of Russia.
So how is Prokhanov, who has changed his political affiliations from Communists to Nationalists to Putin and back, a man of any influence in Russia? And what is his real political creed, to begin with? His paper is not known outside the most marginal groups of the Russian society, unlike it was in the first half of the 1990s, when he, Communists and Nationalists were all pretty big and influential. Same about Dugin - he tried to suck up to those in power but got rejected all the time and he's never been able to even stand next to Putin or his ministers anywhere for a common picture.

Quote:
By the way some authors consider even Zhirinovsky's party LDPR -
a fascists party.
http://www1.ku-eichstaett.de/ZIMOS/f...cs/Umland6.pdf
Well, then they must be just the same kind of morons as Zhirinovsky himself. Come on, if he advertises himself in Dagestan as "LDPR for Dagestan", what sort of fascism can you speak of? He has always been a clown and a toy doggie of Yeltsin and then Putin, pretending to be in opposition while voting as the Kremlin bosses say at every major voting.

Quote:
Not that I am disagree with you calling them wackos.
But IMO first of all we have to take in consideration
is their real influence, whether they are wackos, or not.
So the burden of proof is upon you.
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Old 06 Jan 12, 17:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Er..yes..sorry about that, John. Putin, speaking about McCain, is stating that he suspects McCain may have gotten a screw loose while he was holed up in the Hanoi Hilton.
So...John McCain went crazy when communists tortured him and thus his claims that communists are torturers is based on irrationality.

Gee thanks guys. That clears everything up.
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Old 06 Jan 12, 17:54
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Just a reminder that Fox was commenting on another country's dirty laundry in response to another country's leader commenting on what they perceive as American dirty laundry.
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Old 07 Jan 12, 15:53
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SIXTY MILLION?? I think they got him confused with someone else
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