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  #61  
Old 04 Dec 11, 10:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
A RE-EVALUATION OF THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL ORIGIN OF THE CAROLINA BAYS

ABSTRACT


Controversy as to the origin of the Carolina Bays has centered on terrestrial versus extraterrestrial theories. Meteoritic impact has been considered the primary causal mechanism in extraterrestrial models, but alternatives such as comets and asteroids have not been adequately considered. Comets may explode during fall and produce depressions which would conform to the morphology of the Bays. Only a comet appears to satisfy the constraints imposed both by extraterrestrial requirements and observed terrestrial characteristics.


CONCLUSION


The proposed model with shock waves from cometary fragments exploding above the surface creating a series of similar landforms is conceptually very simple, and is far less complex than most of the terrestrial models postulated recently. For geometrically regular forms such as Carolina Bays we prefer a simple causal mechanism if it is feasible.


Examination of impact mechanics and Carolina Bay morphometry eliminates traditional impact phenomena resulting from meteoroid swarms or asteroids. However, the unique orbital and physical characteristics of a comet favor a model in which a high velocity retrograde comet or a low velocity prograde comet collided with the Earth. The incoming nucleus approached from the northwest and fragmented. The fragments, diverging from the main trajectory, volatized and subsequently exploded in the atmosphere near the surface. The resultant shock waves created shallow elliptical depressions which are best displayed in the sandy sediments of the Coastal Plain. ...


http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbayint.html


This is an event very similar to the Tunguska Blast which I provided some information and links on in the opening posts of this thread. The pattern of craters suggests there may have been more that fell off-shore, in the Atlantic Ocean. How much and what mass I'll admit remains to be determined.
From the 36-yr old unpublished grad students' paper:
7. The stratigraphy beneath the bays is not distorted (Preston and Brown, 1964; Thom, 1970).

8. Bays occur only in unconsolidated sediments. Bays in South Carolina are found on relict marine barrier beaches associated with Pleistoncene sea level fluctuations, in dune fields, on stream terraces and sandy portions of backbarrier flats (Thom, 1970). No bays occur on modern river flood plains and beaches. Bays exist on marine terraces as much as 150 feet above sea level in South Carolina but also occur on discontinuous veneers of fluvial gravels on the Piedmont in Virginia (Goodwin and Johnson, 1970).

9. Carolina Bays appear to be equally preserved on terraces of different ages and formational processes.

10. Bays occur in linear arrays, in complex clusters of as many as fourteen bays, as scattered individuals, and in parallel groups aligned along the minor axes (Figure 2).

11. Bays are either filled or partly filled with both organic and inorganic materials. The basal unit in some bays is a silt believed to represent loess deposited in water.

12. No new bays appear to be forming although Thom (1970) and Frey (1954) cite evidence for recent enlargement of existing Carolina Bays. Price (1968) states that most bays appear to be getting smaller by infilling.

13. Bays are underlain by carbonate, clastic and crystalline bedrock overlain by variable thicknesses of unconsolidated sediments in which the bays are found.

14. Ghosts of semi-obliterated Carolina Bays appear to represent former bays which were filled after formation by terrestrial sediments and organic materials.

15. Small bays deviate further from the mean orientation per region than large bays do.

16. No variation in the heavy mineral suite was found along a traverse of the major axis of one South Carolina bay, even though samples were taken from the bay floor, bay rim and the adjacent non-bay terrace (Preston and Brown, 1964).
None of the above support an impact origin.

A major bolide event ~12kya would have left a clear, unambiguous geochemical signature.

Even if the Carolina Bays were the result of a cometary airburst, if wouldn't be evidence of Hapgood's Edgar Cayce-style fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock
The circumstances of Tiahuanacu I cited above are established geography/geology facts, denying them won't make them go away.
Inability to understand how an ancient civilization did something is not geological evidence of the physically impossible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock
Similar applies to the "bone yards" of mangled flora and fauna about the world, the frozen mammoths, and similar debris cited in "Earth in Upheaval". These hundreds of sites and examples are matter of record that are better served by explanation than denial.
Ever hear of flash floods? They happen all the time. Animals don't often finnish chewing their food, much less digesting it, before being entombed in mud downstream.

Animals tend to congregate near sources of water - Like rivers & streams. During the Pleistocene glacial stages, Siberia and much of the non-glaciated northern latitudes had an arid, steppe/savannah climate. Roughly every 1500 years, the climate would warm significantly (glacial interstadials, Dansgaard-Oeschger Events) and there was extensive melting of the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets. This led to lots of flash floods. Occasionally, massive lakes formed (Missoula, Agassiz, etc.). These lakes were impounded by giant dams of rock, sediment and ice. When these dams failed, floods of biblical proportion occurred; creating landforms like the Channeled Scablands. But these events occurred episodically on a regional scale, not synchronously on a global scale.

People like Art Bell, Hapgood & Velikovsky made things up (flash-frozen mammoths, a layer of liquid rock 100 miles beneath the crust), ignored the basic laws of physics (not just geological theories), correlated phenomena separated by 10's to 100's of millions of years into a dozen millennia and conflated real catastrophic events with nonsensical, physically impossible mechanisms.
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  #62  
Old 05 Dec 11, 18:03
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Another Internet impact “hoax”…
Quote:
The Benavides Impact Structure
A large, multiple airburst, geo-ablative impact structure.

The semi circular ring of The Benavides Impact Structure is 17 miles wide. Just across the border from Terlingua, Texas, and Big Bend National Park, USA.

[…]



The melted material did not come out of the ground. There is no vent, magma chamber, or any volcanic system whatsoever. The blankets of melt, and ejecta, consist of the original surface terrain, flash melted from above, and quickly blown away, from its points of origin.

[…]

As for the age? That remains to be determined. But, as you can see for yourself, since the moment of their emplacement, these splashes of ejecta, and impact melt, have not undergone any significant weathering at all. What ever else they are, those pristine ejecta curtains are not old at all.


The maps show this area to be volcanic due to the melt formations. But don’t you believe it. There is no volcanic vent here.

[…]

Most uniformitarian geologists agree that terrestrial volcanism is the only possible source of enough heat, and pressure to melt rocks on the Earth. And most of them don’t believe in impact events. I disagree with both of those assumptions.

But you can’t have a ‘vent’ without a magma chamber to vent from. And there is no seismic, ground penetrating radar, aeromagnetic, or any other data that describes a magma chamber under the Benavides structure. There is also no convincing explanation in the literature for the crazy mantle physics required for a 25 kilometer diameter, perfectly circular, “hinged trap door" vent.

And, at 60 bucks for a copy of the map, I’m not buying any.

[…]

LINK
The geologic maps of the area are free, if you know where to look and read a little Spanish.

"The semicircular ring of The Benavides Impact Structure" is a granite-cored anticline...



Geologic map of the Benavides area...



Granite is an intrusive igneous rock - It didn't erupt. It was emplaced ~30 mya during the mid-Tertiary. It intruded into a section of Cretaceous carbonates and marine shales that were deposited ~90-120 mya. The rocks dipping away from the Tertiary-aged granite intrusion are composed of Lower Cretaceous limestone and marine shale. There are also some extensive Tertiary-aged andestite lava flows to the east of the anticline.

These rock outcrops are not pristine... 10's of millions of years’ worth of section have been eroded from this area. The areas that I think he is describing as ejecta fields are among the youngest rocks in the region. These are mostly Quaternary polymictic conglomerates... Consolidated piles of angular, chunky rock and dirt that have been eroded from the cuestas and other positive features over the last few 10's to 100's of thousands of years. This area doesn’t get a lot of rainfall; but when it does get rain, it rains torrentially. The v-shaped notches were cut by running water. These intermittent streams (arroyos) are only active during the brief periods of heavy rain. The rock fragments eroded from the ridge-lines remain angular and large because they are only transported a short distance before the arroyo dries up.

As for there being no "vent, magma chamber, or any volcanic system whatsoever"... The region is riddled with vents and magma chambers. The outcrops of intrusive igneous rocks (granite, syenite, porphoritic andesite, etc.) are the surface expression of eroded batholith-type features... They are ancient magma chambers. During the Tertiary, this area was directly over an active subduction zone.

Geologists actually went out there and looked at the rocks... They actually mapped the geology. They didn't sit at home and draw pictures on Google Earth images.

This comment is truly idiotic, “Most uniformitarian geologists agree that terrestrial volcanism is the only possible source of enough heat, and pressure to melt rocks on the Earth. And most of them don’t believe in impact events. I disagree with both of those assumptions.”

Every geologist I’ve ever met, went to school with or have worked with knows what an astrobleme is.

Here's a real astrobleme... Barringer Meteorite Crater

Here's a possible astrobleme...Upheaval Dome
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  #63  
Old 07 Dec 11, 23:27
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Well Doc, I'll get back on the Carolina Bays later, but one aspect I found interesting was how the highest rim was always toward the southeast, consist with a vectored impact of material coming from the northwest (in general).

So far as I know, I might be the only person whom infers that if there is ECD/MCD as cause of end of the pleistocene, the Carolina Bays Impacts may be a factor.

Between demanding job, wife person whom wants her time, several kids and grandkids, plus aging parents, my times for participation here tend to be a bit eclectic.

BTW, your "Crater Hunter" posts are interesting, but his website sounds like one I would have rejected anyway, if I'd come across it prior.
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  #64  
Old 08 Dec 11, 01:28
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Pole Shifts

While evidence of major "Pole Shifts" on Earth may be disputable, we do have what looks to be clear evidence of such on other worlds/planets in our Solar System.

When looking down from say the North Pole Star (Polaris) one would notice that all the planets appear to rotate about the Sun in a counter-clockwise direction and rotate about their axis in a similar manner, except for two.

Venus rotates about its axis in a clockwise direction. This is such a slow rotation rate that it takes nearly two of Venusian years orbiting the Sun for one Venusian day to occur. Still, Venus' rotation on its axis bucks the trend of Solar angular momentum, and lends itself to suggest that sometime in Venus' past, this planet was tipped over by 180 degrees upon its rotational axis. Flipping the full mass of a planet requires HUGE amounts of energy and it would seem that this energy transformed into the very high (800 degree F. +) surface temperature of Venus. It's also probable that much of the surface ruggedness of Venus is due to crustal disruptions that occurred with the physics of being "tossed over" that occurred to this planet.

Uranus presents another example of extreme axial displacement. Uranus has an axial tilt of about 87 degrees making it's south rotational pole face nearly exactly towards the Sun, leaving Uranus to 'roll on its equator' along its orbital path around the Sun. This is the equvilent of a "half-flip" but we've not enough information to determine if the energy converted into extra heat on/within the planet.

Both cases would suggest some form of "Intruder" object of large size and mass that has passed thru the Solar System and disrupted at least these two worlds.

The theory of formation for our Solar System suggests that out of a swirling mass of debris left over from a previous nova/super-nova, the Sun and planets formed as matter collected into them. In principle, the planets should orbit on the same plan as the Solar equator and should have perpendicular axis of rotation. However, all planets have orbits inclined to the plane of the Solar equator/ecliptic, as well as rotational axis tilted towards that same plane, suggesting that all have been affected by a massive object or other energy source that gave them the tilt and inclination. Venus and Uranus would appear to be the most severe examples.

This Intruder body/planet may still be in orbit about our Sun, but since astronomical records of the last few thousand years are sparse on details that might hint at such, we'd have to assume that it may have an ecleptic and very long period (comet like) orbit which could be measured in thousands of years cycle.

While supposedly Earth's geological record suggests no similar "close encounter" of pole shifting nature similar to that of Venus or Uranus, has anyone really looked at available data with this prospect in mind?

One website some might like to look into, which has examined case for the potential of such an Intruder world;
http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/
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  #65  
Old 08 Dec 11, 06:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
While evidence of major "Pole Shifts" on Earth may be disputable, we do have what looks to be clear evidence of such on other worlds/planets in our Solar System.

When looking down from say the North Pole Star (Polaris) one would notice that all the planets appear to rotate about the Sun in a counter-clockwise direction and rotate about their axis in a similar manner, except for two.

Venus rotates about its axis in a clockwise direction. This is such a slow rotation rate that it takes nearly two of Venusian years orbiting the Sun for one Venusian day to occur. Still, Venus' rotation on its axis bucks the trend of Solar angular momentum, and lends itself to suggest that sometime in Venus' past, this planet was tipped over by 180 degrees upon its rotational axis. Flipping the full mass of a planet requires HUGE amounts of energy and it would seem that this energy transformed into the very high (800 degree F. +) surface temperature of Venus. It's also probable that much of the surface ruggedness of Venus is due to crustal disruptions that occurred with the physics of being "tossed over" that occurred to this planet.

Uranus presents another example of extreme axial displacement. Uranus has an axial tilt of about 87 degrees making it's south rotational pole face nearly exactly towards the Sun, leaving Uranus to 'roll on its equator' along its orbital path around the Sun. This is the equvilent of a "half-flip" but we've not enough information to determine if the energy converted into extra heat on/within the planet.

Both cases would suggest some form of "Intruder" object of large size and mass that has passed thru the Solar System and disrupted at least these two worlds.

The theory of formation for our Solar System suggests that out of a swirling mass of debris left over from a previous nova/super-nova, the Sun and planets formed as matter collected into them. In principle, the planets should orbit on the same plan as the Solar equator and should have perpendicular axis of rotation. However, all planets have orbits inclined to the plane of the Solar equator/ecliptic, as well as rotational axis tilted towards that same plane, suggesting that all have been affected by a massive object or other energy source that gave them the tilt and inclination. Venus and Uranus would appear to be the most severe examples.

This Intruder body/planet may still be in orbit about our Sun, but since astronomical records of the last few thousand years are sparse on details that might hint at such, we'd have to assume that it may have an ecleptic and very long period (comet like) orbit which could be measured in thousands of years cycle.

While supposedly Earth's geological record suggests no similar "close encounter" of pole shifting nature similar to that of Venus or Uranus, has anyone really looked at available data with this prospect in mind?

One website some might like to look into, which has examined case for the potential of such an Intruder world;
http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/
It's not disputable or debatable (on Earth). There is no evidence of true polar wander (distinct from precession, continental drift and geomagnetic reversal) at rate of more than 1° per million years during the Phanerozoic Eon (most recent 540 million years).

The only possible example of a rapid polar shift is from one craton during the Neoproterozoic (1 billion to 540 million years ago). Two relatively rapid ~50° shifts might have occurred. Although there are at least three other working hypotheses.

http://m.gsabulletin.gsapubs.org/con.../1099.abstract

A lot of weird things (like Snowball Earth episodes might have happened before the Phanerozoic; but the pre-Phanerozoic rock record is too poorly preserved to reliably reconstruct Earth history with any detail prior to 540 MYA. And a lot of real catastrophic geologic events have occurred over the last 540 MY; all of which are accommodated by real science.

Last edited by The Doctor; 08 Dec 11 at 06:51..
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  #66  
Old 08 Dec 11, 06:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Well Doc, I'll get back on the Carolina Bays later, but one aspect I found interesting was how the highest rim was always toward the southeast, consist with a vectored impact of material coming from the northwest (in general).

So far as I know, I might be the only person whom infers that if there is ECD/MCD as cause of end of the pleistocene, the Carolina Bays Impacts may be a factor.

Between demanding job, wife person whom wants her time, several kids and grandkids, plus aging parents, my times for participation here tend to be a bit eclectic.

BTW, your "Crater Hunter" posts are interesting, but his website sounds like one I would have rejected anyway, if I'd come across it prior.
His blog is very slick and well-presented.

The Carolina Bays are semi circular depressions in sandy alluvial and eolian Pleistocene-aged sediments, filled with Holocene-aged mud, muck & peat. They are ubiquitous on flat, low-lying Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico coastal plains. They are not craters nor are they even remotely analogous to Tunguska.
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  #67  
Old 08 Dec 11, 21:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
His blog is very slick and well-presented.

The Carolina Bays are semi circular depressions in sandy alluvial and eolian Pleistocene-aged sediments, filled with Holocene-aged mud, muck & peat. They are ubiquitous on flat, low-lying Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico coastal plains. They are not craters nor are they even remotely analogous to Tunguska.
Okay! I'll agree at this time that it looks highly unlikely that the Carolina Bays (most of 'em anyways) are caused by cometary or similar impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Bay
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Old 09 Dec 11, 12:16
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Just to prove that geologists don't have an aversion to finding impact craters...

High-Impact Reservoirs

One of the authors used to work for me... A very sharp kid who quit a perfectly good job to go back to school. He presented his work on the Red Wing impact at the AAPG meeting back in April.
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Old 09 Dec 11, 16:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Okay! I'll agree at this time that it looks highly unlikely that the Carolina Bays (most of 'em anyways) are caused by cometary or similar impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Bay
According to the serially flawed Firestone et al., 2007, the Carolina Bays were formed by a massive bolide (air bursting chondrite meteor/asteroid), which also triggered the onset of the Younger Dryas stadial (cold period), caused the extinction of the North American megafauna and destroyed the Clovis culture.

About half-a-dozen papers over the last four years have shot down every single point of Firestone et al., 2007. The most effective was Paquay et al., 2009. Paquay could not reproduce the iridium anomalies that Firestone claimed to be associated with the onset of the Younger Dryas. Paquay also looked at the entire platinum group...



The Younger Dryas exhibits no evidence of a major bolide. One of Paquay's sites was Howard Bay NC (a Carolina Bay feature).

Melott et al., 2010 did find a nitrate spike associated with the onset of the Younger Dryas, comparable to the one associated with the Tunguska bolide. But a bolide powerful enough to trigger the Younger Dryas would have had to b ~6 orders of magnitude larger than Tunguska...



Carlson, 2010 noted that the Younger Dryas nitrate increase was not unique. The previous stadial was also associated with a nitrate increase...




So... There is no clear geochemical signature of a bolide at the Younger Dryas. While Tunguska exhibits a clear platinum group anomaly...



Tunguska was thought to have been a 50-80 m carbonaceous chondrite that exploded at an altitude of 5-10 km.

The Carolina Bays are assumed by some to be crater-like in appearance and consistent with a Tunguska-style bolide. Despite the fact that the Tunguska bolide did not cause a distinctly clear crater (although a fragment of it might have caused one).

The Barringer Crater was caused by an impacting 10-50 m nickel-iron meteor 40-50 thousand years ago. Its explosive intensity was similar to Tunguska; but it impacted the ground rather than exploding in the atmosphere. It left a big @$$ hole in the ground, filled with lechaterlierite (fused silica glass) and meteoric material...




The Elizabethtown NC quadrangle is loaded with Carolina Bay features...



The Carolina Bays are generally NW-SE trending semicircular swampy areas occupying shallow depressions in older sandy deposits...



In cross section, they don't look anything like craters...



And they really don't look anything at all like Barringer Crater when plotted at the same scale...



The Carolina Bays were supposedly craters caused by a larger bolide than Tunguska... Yet they don't have any geochemical signature, no impact mineralogy and their "craters" are smaller than the pile of dirt at the bottom of Barringer Crater.


The Carolina Bays meteor/asteroid/comet would have had to have been powerful enough to leave 100’s of thousands of small craters without leaving as much geochemical evidence as a much smaller bolide 12,000 years later… And those craters would have had to have been much more subdued than the one left by a single impacting nickel-iron meteor 40,000 years earlier.

The robot from Lost in Space would say, “That does not compute.”

Last edited by The Doctor; 09 Dec 11 at 21:57..
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  #71  
Old 09 Dec 11, 21:46
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OK - OK - OK!
I'll give ya' a 99.99% on the Carolina Bays issue (holding on to that 0.01% chance of a stray crater somewhere some one hasn't looked too closely at that might be of impact origin.)

BTW, if 0.01% of the atmosphere is CO2 and this is causing "GLOBAL WARMING", couldn't an 0.01% Impact cause a Pole Shift???

(jess kiddin')
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Old 09 Dec 11, 21:50
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Just to prove that geologists don't have an aversion to finding impact craters...

High-Impact Reservoirs

One of the authors used to work for me... A very sharp kid who quit a perfectly good job to go back to school. He presented his work on the Red Wing impact at the AAPG meeting back in April.
Didn't think ya' all did and hope I wasn't givin' that impression. As I see it, we've been talkin' specific cases here, not general concepts.

I skimmed that article link and it looks very interesting. Hope to find time later to read it over. At least I know where to find it.
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Old 14 Dec 11, 19:50
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The best solution I heard of is the gravity tractor...

No mess, no fuss...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_tractor
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Old 14 Dec 11, 20:13
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Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
The best solution I heard of is the gravity tractor...

No mess, no fuss...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_tractor
As the article points out, you need time, likely lots of it, and you may also need a rather large ship/vessel as well to make it work. Doesn't look like something in our near future at the moment.
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  #75  
Old 15 Dec 11, 18:33
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post

Why is it that this crater is almost a perfect square with rounded corners? Take a piece of paper and put it over the pic and you can see how good the right angles are.





Real meteor craters are round like this one on Mars.





Or these from Jupiter's moons, Ganymede and Callisto.





Or these craters from our moon Luna.




If you take a box of flower and throw small odd shaped objects into it, you will find that the resulting craters are round even when the impact is at high angles of incidence.

If you look at cratered objects from around the Solar system, you only find straight lines when multiple impacts overlap, there are lava flows, escarpments or some other geology that upsets the circle. There are other odd craters that are misshapen but not with perfectly parallel sides.

None of those features can explain why this is the only perfectly square impact crater in our Solar System.

https://www.google.com/search?q=spac...w=1280&bih=878

Go ahead, I dare you to find another square crater pic! I've looked and if there are any, they are extremely rare. Also note there is no central peak in the square crater, but that might be explainable by it's small size and the bed rock properties.

Perhaps there is another explanation for the square crater besides the simple minded impact theory...
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File Type: jpg 2.jpg (185.7 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg fig1a.jpg (214.5 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg columbia.craters.m.jpg (66.6 KB, 41 views)
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Last edited by Pirate-Drakk; 15 Dec 11 at 18:40..
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