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  #46  
Old 30 Jul 11, 11:49
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Nice thought, Lodestar, but by this time Martin-Baker consisted of Mr Martin (Captain Baker having died in the crash of the MB3) four men, a dog and a small factory making seats and ammunition feeds.

Can you imagine the government of the day saying to Supermarine or Hawker;

"We can't use your designs because this one's better. As you have a factory, could you build it for us ?"

What prevented the MB5 from taking its place in history is that the parent company couldn't build it in quantity and nobody else would.
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  #47  
Old 31 Jul 11, 05:50
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Wildcats F4F Carrier based fighter …..Pacific war hero……
Undercarriage ……. Was it unstable on landing? ….. Carrier decks
The Grumman F4F Wildcat…. Had a narrow track …about the same as the 109s with the main wheels only half retracting to lie flat against the lower fuselage.


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  #48  
Old 31 Jul 11, 15:33
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since this type of thread is pointless
I thought I'd throw in a pic of the best fighter and pilot of all time

without further adieu'

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  #49  
Old 01 Aug 11, 11:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KICK View Post
since this type of thread is pointless
I thought I'd throw in a pic of the best fighter and pilot of all time

without further adieu'

I have to agree with you about this kind of thread being useless. For several reasons.

1. It is all subjective.

2. As the war progressed one excellent piece of equipment lead to another.

3. When you talk about military equipment. you have to look at the context to when it was designed. Two prime examples being arguements over some US equipment. First most say the M4 medium tank was infirior to the Panther. But look at the context in which they were designed.

Next look at the F2A Buffalo fighter plane when it was designed and first issued to the USN, it was the best carrier fighter in the world. The British were using the Sea Gladiator and the Japanese were using the A5M. When it did see combat they were usually outnumbered 4 to 1 and they achieved a 2 to 1 kill ratio. not bad for a plane designed in the mid 30's

Last edited by panther3485; 01 Aug 11 at 12:05.. Reason: Change "Japs" to Japanese
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  #50  
Old 01 Aug 11, 12:29
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Without a doubt one of the great unsung aces of the war! Fitting that I earn my first star honoring Snoopy!

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  #51  
Old 16 Sep 17, 04:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
Why the U.S. Air Force did not use the F-47 Thunderbolt in the Korean War

by Michael D. Rowland

From page 3:


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

Some comments I posted in a previous thread.



http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...&postcount=316

From the above article(page 4):
Sorry.

I'm just updating a link that I previously posted (and strangely enough had a random thought about a few days ago) that had gone dead and I was thinking it would be gone forever.

However, I have found another link and just want to preserve it in case I need to use it again sometime.

Which I probably will.

https://sobchak.wordpress.com/2012/0...he-korean-war/
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  #52  
Old 16 Sep 17, 04:45
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  #53  
Old 16 Sep 17, 12:01
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And, no one has yet mentioned the Ki 84 Hayate. The US in post war tests grudgingly had to admit it was better than any of their fighters in mock combat. It was easily a match for anything British or German too.
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  #54  
Old 16 Sep 17, 19:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
And, no one has yet mentioned the Ki 84 Hayate. The US in post war tests grudgingly had to admit it was better than any of their fighters in mock combat. It was easily a match for anything British or German too.
Is that the one they used effectively against our B-29's?
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  #55  
Old 16 Sep 17, 19:40
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For me it's the Spitfire, the Corsair , the Hellcat, the Mosquito, the P-47 Thunderbolt and most of all the P-51 Mustang?
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  #56  
Old 16 Sep 17, 19:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
Is that the one they used effectively against our B-29's?
Yes. It and the Kawanishi N1K1 George and George II were probably the two most effective fighters Japan produced during the war.

There is one account of Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in February 1945 taking on 12 F6F Hellcats single-handedly in a N1K1-J Shiden (George) shooting down four of them and forcing the others to break off combat.

The Ki 84 at 20,000 feet was at full emergency power faster than a P-47D-35-RA and P-51D-25-NA. It also out turned both by a considerable margin and could easily out roll the Mustang.
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  #57  
Old 16 Sep 17, 20:23
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The two best fighters of WW2 were the Wildcat in the PTO and the Fw 190 in the West.

Once the tactics were correct, the Wildcat gained air superiority in the Pacific, despite top trump advantages of the Zero. US green pilots were able to win against Japanese veterans.

When the Fw 190 appeared, a novice German pilot was more than able to shoot down a BoB veteran in a Spitfire V, more so than the other way round. France became off limits for about a year.

These are the two outstanding fighters of WW2, the ones that were real game changers before economics come into play.
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  #58  
Old 16 Sep 17, 22:58
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At this rate, guys, we night need another WW2 Fighters Campaign before too long!
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  #59  
Old 16 Sep 17, 23:03
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One that I think is very underrated is the Gloster Meteor. In limited service though, but the fact one still flies with its original engines speaks tons about the plane.
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  #60  
Old 16 Sep 17, 23:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The two best fighters of WW2 were the Wildcat in the PTO and the Fw 190 in the West.

Once the tactics were correct, the Wildcat gained air superiority in the Pacific, despite top trump advantages of the Zero. US green pilots were able to win against Japanese veterans.

<SNIP>

These are the two outstanding fighters of WW2, the ones that were real game changers before economics come into play.
I have demolished your contentions about the Wildcat, most recently in the later parts of this thread from 12 months ago:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=173107

I should not have to waste time repeating myself when I have previously provided "chapter and verse" with documentary evidence, sources, quotes from pertinent authors etc.

The following from John Lundstrom's book "The First Team.....", reproduced in attachments below, is just a sample:

Quote:
[.....
Three days later(April 6 1942) Gray shot off a rocket to Halsey offering his opinion of the Grumman F4F-4 fighter.(8) The performance of the folding wing Wildcat was " exceedingly unsatisfactory." The weight, he felt, simply was too much for the available horsepower, a fact most detrimental to the aircraft's climb and maneuverability. He noted that the F4F-4 had "the feel of a fully loaded torpedo plane." In tests, VF-6 pilots discovered that the climb rate of a fully loaded F4F-4 was only 1,500 feet per minute up to 15,000 feet. Thereafter even that anemic climb rate fell off drastically to 600 feet per minute at 22,000 feet of altitude. Gray found it took almost fourty minutes and nearly half of the fuel supply to coax an F4F-4 up to 32,000 feet. Certainly, he added, the fighter would be fine against unescorted bombers and other "cold meat", but what about the seemingly magical Zero in light of claims for the climb rate, speed, and maneuverability of the vaunted Mitsubishi product? Gray requested swift replacement of the F4F-4 with a version sporting a more powerful engine.

The Enterprise's veteran skipper George Murray fully agreed with the opinions of VF-6. He contributed an endorsement to Gray's letter that stated flatly: "The F4F-4 is greatly inferior to the latest Japanese fighters."(9)
[.....]
The above comments, paying particular note to the highlighted bold portions, are not exactly a ringing endorsement for your contentions.

There are plenty more links to sources contained in the earlier thread about the Corsair that I linked to above.

Quote:
When the Fw 190 appeared, a novice German pilot was more than able to shoot down a BoB veteran in a Spitfire V, more so than the other way round. France became off limits for about a year.
And, France "off limits for about a year".....

Certainly, the FW190 was superior to the Spitfire Mark V, in most respects - better rate of turn being one such important advantage to be retained by the Spitfire, but it was not of significant enough improvement in comparison overall to that RAF fighter to "shut down" Fighter Command for the period you speak of.

"Circuses" were halted for a time, but then resumed.

From pp120 of "Fighter Command Victory Claims, Volume 2"

by John Foreman

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...ommand&f=false

Quote:
Following the high losses incurred on Circus No. 101 on 8th November, Circuses were suspended, albeit temporarily. The offensive was to be maintained by means of escorted fighter-bomber missions, known as Fighter Ramrods. It would not be until early March that the Circus missions would be resumed.
[.....]
This resumption in March is before the combat debut of the Spitfire Mark IX, and certainly well before it was available in meaningful numbers.

Chapter 4

"Enter the Butcher Bird"

attachment #3

provides further comments:

Quote:
The new Luftwaffe fighter, the Focke Wulf 190, entered service in August 1941, but was first met in strength late in September. This remarkable fighter, flown by well-trained, experienced and confident pilots, came as (sic)great shock to Fighter Command. It easily outperformed the SpitfireVb.....Even with the clear superiority of the Focke Wulf, the British pilots were still quite prepared to do battle even though, as the great Johnnie Johnson was later to say, "The '190's forced us right back to the French coast". The German pilots were now supremely confident,....."The RAF were in for a tough time and would face it with awesome courage."
You refer to "novice" Luftwaffe pilots.

It is common knowledge, as Foreman alludes to, that the Western front was staffed by, on the whole,

Quote:
well-trained, experienced and confident pilots
Due to the perceived, and at the time actual, lower quality opposition provided by Soviet pilots that had survived the opening stages of Barbarossa, the novice Luftwaffe pilots were generally sent East.

The best of the rest were sent West. - so to speak

It was partly due to this higher level of Luftwaffe pilot proficiency, viz a viz, the lower level exhibited by Fighter Command pilots that contributed to the margin of superiority of the "Butcher Bird" over its opposition.

As author Norman Franks points out in:

Fighter Command's Air War 1941


and I have posted it in an earlier post, there were consequences to the frantic attempts to increase the numbers of pilots being trained during the Battle of Britain.

Certainly, there were more RAF pilots available at the end of the Battle than before it - no argument there - but Franks points out that you cannot expect to cut corners on training time to boost numbers and still expect the end result to be a well rounded pilot.

Something had to give..... and it was pilot quality.

These hastily trained pilots were what were leavening the ranks of Fighter Command in 1941.

From the earlier post in the "Corsair" thread

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...&postcount=109

Quote:
(describes the beginning of the process of having the RAF turn its attention to "a lean towards France", during the winter of 1940/41 subsequent to the defensive posture adopted during the Battle of Britain - from which the terms "Circus", "Rhubarb", "Ramrod", "Rodeo" etc. would become familiar.)
[.....]
Of course, it has also to be taken into account that many of the Battle of Britain veterans had now left front-line operations and been sent off on rest, instructing, and so on. There was now a massive influx of new and untried pilots reaching the squadrons, who, while keen to do their best, had not been given sufficient time at Operational Training Units to bring them to an operational status and mind-set. Their leaders still in combat were becoming increasingly tired and due for a rest too. Other experienced pilots were also being sent to Malta and the North African Desert.

As far as the air leaders were concerned, it was virtually World War One all over again, this time the trenches had become the English Channel, and in persisting in Trenchard’s old doctrine of ‘taking the war to the enemy’, RAF fighter pilots were becoming the ‘cannon fodder’ of the present war.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ClimbRateLundstrom.jpg (117.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Winter194142Foreman.jpg (71.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg ButcherBirdForeman.jpg (73.9 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by At ease; 17 Sep 17 at 02:21..
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