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  #31  
Old 26 Jul 11, 19:23
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To be short, I have to go with the P-47 even though the P-51, Spitfire, and ME109 all were great fighters.
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  #32  
Old 26 Jul 11, 21:01
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The Fw-190 series evolved into the Ta-152, a very promising aircraft that was only implemented as the German war effort descended into chaos.
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  #33  
Old 28 Jul 11, 21:49
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Great discussion on fighter planes. I personally think the P-47 Thunderbolt was much better than what it is given credit for but lives in the shadow of the P-51 Mustang. If I am not mistaken there were more P-47 aces than P-51 aces.
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  #34  
Old 29 Jul 11, 01:32
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P-51 was a great fighter...P-47 was a great ground attack aircraft.

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  #35  
Old 29 Jul 11, 01:58
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I believe the 352nd FG, which flew P-51s, actually went back to a P-47 for a while because they were going to be flying more strafing missions.
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  #36  
Old 29 Jul 11, 04:49
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Originally Posted by Matt Jones View Post
P-51 was a great fighter...P-47 was a great ground attack aircraft.

-Matt
The P47, from the "D dash 25" onwards, "M", and including the "N" versions was both.
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  #37  
Old 29 Jul 11, 05:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkertail20 View Post
I believe the 352nd FG, which flew P-51s, actually went back to a P-47 for a while because they were going to be flying more strafing missions.
This is the closest I have concerning the various 8th Air Force Fighter Groups and their equipment.



http://www.ausairpower.net/HISTORICAL/8thAF.png

The information has been compiled by one of Australia's most highly regarded aviation writers, Dr Carlo Kopp.

According to the above information, no FG once equipped with Mustangs reverted to Thunderbolts.

I do not have comparable information for the other US ETO Air Forces, so what you say may be correct, but just not as far as the 352FG is concerned.
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Last edited by At ease; 29 Jul 11 at 05:08..
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  #38  
Old 29 Jul 11, 05:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Lance View Post
A present day squadron commander got into an ME109 and said in effect
"this is constricted and I'm a pretty small guy".

And a wartime pilot said "it felt like I was going into a coffin". (tilt-over canopy)

Also the width was so narrow that the pilot couldn't use his full arm to lever the joystick around.

The undercarriage was so narrow it was a devil to taxi on grass strips.

But...

It was well made and a top pilot (memory!) preferred it over the FW190.
Cockpit …..The Me 109 cockpit was narrow and a tight squeeze, once inside pilot was almost laying down, but was very simplicity laid out (left to right) elevators trim flaps-trim wheels all fail easily to hand. A ‘Galland hood’ offered a much improved view. The Spitfire a small cockpit was set right back above the wing trailing edge. Taller pilots found the headroom very restrictive and this lead to the original flat cockpit canopy on earlier Spitfires being replaced by the famous bulged version. Other improvements were armour-plated windscreen and armour behind the pilots seat.


Undercarriage………. It was true that the Me 109 had a narrow undercarriage and unstable on the ground with inexperience pilots. However although the roots were much narrower than that of the Spitfire, the Me 109s landing gear was splayed making the 109s gear the same track as the Spitfire.
It a myth that the narrow undercarriage made the Me 109 lethal, it was more a result of high wing loading and the enormous torque of the DB601 engine. Its noted that both Me109 & Spitfire had the same % of crash landings. Pilot error and most that airfield were just undulating grass fields contributed to crashes.


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  #39  
Old 29 Jul 11, 06:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wells fargo View Post
Its noted that both Me109 & Spitfire had the same % of crash landings.
Do you have a source for this claim

ps: Didn't the problem with the torque on the Me 109 occur on take off, not the landing.
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  #40  
Old 29 Jul 11, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
Cockpit …..The Me 109 cockpit was narrow and a tight squeeze, once inside pilot was almost laying down, but was very simplicity laid out (left to right) elevators trim flaps-trim wheels all fail easily to hand. A ‘Galland hood’ offered a much improved view. The Spitfire a small cockpit was set right back above the wing trailing edge. Taller pilots found the headroom very restrictive and this lead to the original flat cockpit canopy on earlier Spitfires being replaced by the famous bulged version. Other improvements were armour-plated windscreen and armour behind the pilots seat.


Undercarriage………. It was true that the Me 109 had a narrow undercarriage and unstable on the ground with inexperience pilots. However although the roots were much narrower than that of the Spitfire, the Me 109s landing gear was splayed making the 109s gear the same track as the Spitfire.
It a myth that the narrow undercarriage made the Me 109 lethal, it was more a result of high wing loading and the enormous torque of the DB601 engine. Its noted that both Me109 & Spitfire had the same % of crash landings. Pilot error and most that airfield were just undulating grass fields contributed to crashes.


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
Ta Wells. Well I've carefully looked through my book on the ME109 and they don't say much at all about the undercarriage. So perhaps this is a bit of a red herring verging on myth. But I suspect that the top of the legs of the Spit was wider than the ME109. So the 109 had a more splayed-out Oleo legs.

So any experts on directional stability regarding splayed versus not-so-splayed?

But I'm pretty sure about the cockpit width. And lifting that 109 hood in an emergency? Yep coffin lid.
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  #41  
Old 29 Jul 11, 17:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Lance View Post
Ta Wells. Well I've carefully looked through my book on the ME109 and they don't say much at all about the undercarriage. So perhaps this is a bit of a red herring verging on myth. But I suspect that the top of the legs of the Spit was wider than the ME109. So the 109 had a more splayed-out Oleo legs.
The document I referred to in post #29(not all that long ago ), whilst not a treatment of undercarriage design as such, does offer some anecdotal evidence as to the actual reasons for the Bf109's perceived problems in this area.

See especially this section of the document.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...myths/#takeoff



Quote:
So any experts on directional stability regarding splayed versus not-so-splayed?



From the above drawing it will be seen that the tops of the wheels are closer together than the bottom.

This is what is known as "negative camber".

Almost all racing cars have their suspension geometry set to negative camber angles as it improves cornering.

Road cars much less so, as it generally increases tyre wear to some extent.

Quote:
Camber angle alters the handling qualities of a particular suspension design; in particular, negative camber improves grip when cornering. This is because it places the tire at a better angle to the road, transmitting the forces through the vertical plane of the tire, rather than through a shear force across it. Another reason for negative camber is that a rubber tire tends to roll on itself while cornering. If the tire had zero camber, the inside edge of the contact patch would begin to lift off of the ground, thereby reducing the area of the contact patch. By applying negative camber, this effect is reduced, thereby maximizing the contact patch area. Note that this is only true for the outside tire during the turn; the inside tire would benefit most from positive camber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle

Whilst not being anywhere near ideal as far as aircraft undercarriage design is concerned(other aircraft such as the Hawker Hurricane, Typhoon, FW190 etc. were obviously much better), the rationale for the Bf109's design was to allow the partly assembled aircraft(sans wings) to be moved around in the factory easier, and for easier wing replacement in the field in case of damage.

The resultant narrow track, as "wellsfargo" mentions, is partly overcome by resorting to "splaying" the u/c legs outwards.
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Last edited by At ease; 29 Jul 11 at 23:47.. Reason: spelling
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  #42  
Old 29 Jul 11, 20:11
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Funny how Herr Tank then gave the Fw 190 one of the widest landing-gear tracks of any single-engined aircraft in the world.
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  #43  
Old 29 Jul 11, 23:58
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If I recall correctly, as much as P-51D (and later versions) keep having many supporters presenting it as the best WW2 fighter, American high-numbered aces were flying P-38s (Bong & McGuire) P-47 (Gabreski) and older P-51B/C models (Gentile)

Or is my recollection wrong?
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  #44  
Old 30 Jul 11, 02:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
Do you have a source for this claim

ps: Didn't the problem with the torque on the Me 109 occur on take off, not the landing.
Book..... Military Reff Books by Jim Winchester

The Battle of Britain Five months that changed history May - October 1940
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2010

Yes Torque was on tak off

Also listed is (july-October) 460 Hurricans damaged as result of accidents
Non combat losses for both sides was about 20%

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  #45  
Old 30 Jul 11, 07:35
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No contest: Martin=Baker MB 5

If you are talking performance rather than accomplishment or effect on events then it has to be the Martin Baker MB 5.
Well at least as far as piston powered jobs go.

Trouble is only one built!

The Rolls-Royce Magazine," issue no. 86, Year 2000. The author is Philip Jarrett.
"Asked to name outstanding Second World War fighters, most people would probably cite the Supermarine Spitfire, Hawker Hurricane, North American Mustang, Messerschmitt Bf 109, Focke-Wulf Fw 190, Mitsubishi Zero and Republic Thunderbolt. Mention of the Martin-Baker MB5 would probably produce a blank expression. This is hardly surprising, as only one MB5 was built. But it was an outstanding aeroplane in many respects, and, had its evolution been less protracted, it might have well been numbered among the greats."

"The breathtaking demonstrations of the MB5 by skilled Polish aerobatic and display pilot, Squadron Leader Jan Zurakowski, during the 1946 Farnborough Air Display were the high points of the event. Zurakowski said it was 'the best airplane I have ever flown', and asked why it had not been put into production during the war. Pilots who sampled the fighter for the magazines Flight and The Aeroplane in late 1947 were generous in their praise of its handling and maneuvrability."


Speaking of accomplishment or effect on events, then so far as fighters in WWII goes surely it has to be the Me 109? (luftwaffe workhorse from 'First to Last' as Galland said).

Light/Dive or tac bomers: JU 87 Stuka? (terror of Europe, vital part of the Blitzkrieg's success)
or maybe IL2? ( the Russian Front being so mauch vaster in scale than the western theatre)

Heavy bombers: B29 superfortress? (strategic bombing wins the Pacific War?)

Anyway gotta run now.

Cheers
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