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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East

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The Middle East Asia Minor, the Arab Mahgreb, and the Persian Gulf to include tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, Terrorist organizations and Iran.

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  #61  
Old 05 Mar 11, 14:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
The is an Arab/EU problem, they need to stop fing around and take care of their own problems. It's Arabs that are being killed and European oil that is at stake. USA shouldn't even help European nationals evac, the EU needs to learn that sometimes you just have to man up and put boots on the ground.

So...when Canadians show up at the airport and an Italian plane is there to evacuate their citizens but abandon the Canadians on the tarmac for having the wrong nationality....you're ok with that? When this does happen, I'll remind you. FYI -EU planes have already begun evacuating their nationals for several days now, so I'm not sure where this "EU need to man-up" sentiment comes from.

It is as much a US problem as it is the EUs, we're seeing proof at this at the gas pump. All this talk about providing air support is sheer stupidity. I would like to ask all members here a question: do you have any clear evidence/proof that this rebellion has a verifyable leader? Does anyone here know with 100% certainty that the rebels mean the West well and have good intentions towards the West? The fact of the matter is, we know one side is bad, but we have no idea what the other side represents other than they don't want Daffy. To give any support to them would be tantamount to giving them recognition when we're not even sure who they are or want they want to do if/when they are successful and take power.

Best to stay out and see what happens. Evacuating Western nationals is they ONLY thing that should be done right now.

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Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
My view on things is, you fix the problems you make. Thus, the Belgians should be responsible for the DRoC, the British for Sudan and any other former British colony. The French should be dealing with Ivory Coast, etc.

Libya is the EU's, and more specifically, Italy and Britain's problem. The Arabs should also be helping out, but again, the Arabs really don't care about each other, they only work together to gang bang Israel.
With that logic, the US should be carrying on alone in Iraq and A-stan. What you're advocating is nothing short than a dissolution of the Western Alliance, per NATO or otherwise. The colonies are the distant past. These nations have been on their own for quite some time and if they can't get their sh*t straight, it's their problem...not France, or Belgium or the UK. The aurguement that former colonial masters are somehow still obligated to their former protectorates/colonies is pure BS. I would like nothing more than to see Africa to fend for itself, for ill or good.
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  #62  
Old 05 Mar 11, 15:01
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Originally Posted by asterix View Post
With that logic, the US should be carrying on alone in Iraq and A-stan. What you're advocating is nothing short than a dissolution of the Western Alliance, per NATO or otherwise. The colonies are the distant past. These nations have been on their own for quite some time and if they can't get their sh*t straight, it's their problem...not France, or Belgium or the UK. The aurguement that former colonial masters are somehow still obligated to their former protectorates/colonies is pure BS. I would like nothing more than to see Africa to fend for itself, for ill or good.
Incorrect. Iraq should be the UK's problem, they created the state of Iraq, which was incredibly idiotic.

What I'm saying is if the UN wants to help some oppressed people in a 3rd world country then it should be their former colonial masters that have to go do it.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 00:26
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Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
My view on things is, you fix the problems you make. Thus, the Belgians should be responsible for the DRoC, the British for Sudan and any other former British colony. The French should be dealing with Ivory Coast, etc.
You have to give the French credit for that one. They at least try to deal with all the chaos in Côte d'Ivoire.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 10:22
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
You have to give the French credit for that one. They at least try to deal with all the chaos in Côte d'Ivoire.
And I commend them for that. Yet they still haven't made up for arming the Rwandan Army, training the Presidential Guard Regiment, and evacuating all the high ups with blood on their hands.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 10:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
You have to give the French credit for that one. They at least try to deal with all the chaos in Côte d'Ivoire.
At some point these countries must deal with their own problems - and the International community needs to help where possible.

Consider German South West Africa -- it was a German Colony from 1884 till 1915 -- should we honestly expect Germany to deal with any current issues in that region almost 100 years after Germany withdrew ?? I think not !

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  #66  
Old 06 Mar 11, 10:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
At some point these countries must deal with their own problems - and the International community needs to help where possible.

Consider German South West Africa -- it was a German Colony from 1884 till 1915 -- should we honestly expect Germany to deal with any current issues in that region almost 100 years after Germany withdrew ?? I think not !

No it's South Africa's problem, for obvious reasons.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 10:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
And I commend them for that. Yet they still haven't made up for arming the Rwandan Army, training the Presidential Guard Regiment, and evacuating all the high ups with blood on their hands.
Give me an 'effin break...what next? Elysee passed the orders to massacre the civilians? Since when did you care about Rwanda?

BTW - I'm all for my country abandoning Cote d'Ivoire as well. I have a cousin who served there briefly. He said there was absolutely nothing redeeming about that sh*thole of a country.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 10:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asterix View Post
Give me an 'effin break...what next? Elysee passed the orders to massacre the civilians? Since when did you care about Rwanda?

BTW - I'm all for my country abandoning Cote d'Ivoire as well. I have a cousin who served there briefly. He said there was absolutely nothing redeeming about that sh*thole of a country.
Who wouldn't care about Rwanda? Are you saying we should ignore genocide?
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Old 06 Mar 11, 11:25
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The people in Tripoli are being told that Gadhaffi's forces have retaken all the towns in Libya. It's not true, but the Tripoli citizens (those loyal to Gadhaffi) have been celebrating all day, firing automatic weapons into the air - an ancient tradition going back thousands of years.....

Latest from Al Jazeera's blog.


Quote:
5:39pm

Sirte has been developed over the past ten years to become a new capital of Libya, and is packed with those most loyal to Gaddafi, Tarik Yousef of the Dubai School of Government tells Al Jazeera.

There are many there from Gaddafi's own tribe - and those from his own branch of the tribe.

5:35pm

The UN Security Council will name Portugal to head its Libya sanctions committee, Al Jazeera understands - and the first meeting will be held within days.

Portugal's ambassador Jose Moraes Cabral will be named to head the committee on Tuesday and he will start talks on Wednesday over which other nations will be represented on the panel.

5:30pm

Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte is the next target for the armed anti-Gaddafi opposition, says Abdul Jalil, newly appointed head of the "Libyan National Transitional Council".

This is an attempt to "break the ring that blocks the path" to Libyan capital Tripoli, he says.

5:27pm

Mustafa Abdul Jalil, Libya's former justice minister, has been appointed head of the Libyan National Transitional Council in Benghazi, Al Jazeera Arabic reports.

The new council has also named a further eight of its 31 members, but declined to reveal the rest, citing security fears.

5:16pm

Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, on the road between Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad, reports four airstrikes on the area, but that Gaddafi's troops have retreated as the armed opposition proceeds westwards along the coast.

This has gone so smoothly for the rebels, everyone is forced to ask: "When are Gaddafi's forces going to strike back?"

I think the people here are driven by enthusiasm more than experience. They do have some heavy weaponry- but many realistic people here are telling me that Sirte is a different ball game.

If that falls, there is little to stop them marching on to Tripoli - so Gaddafi is expected to put up a very strong fight there, just 100km to the west of here. And we have yet to see the full strength of Gaddafi's air power - the helicopter gunships and so on.


5:05pm

More from Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught:

We're now in mid-afternoon and people are still celebrating victories that have not yet been won, and the end of a war that has not yet finished. They are very sincere, but you have to wonder what these people have been told.

Green Square was only about one-fifth full. And the shots of the square on Libyan state TV were filmed quite close - you may have seen some wider shots in our footage ... Of the four people we recorded, one was Algerian, one was Palestinian and two were Libyan. It's hard to ascertain exactly how representative this crowd is.

And we haven't yet got to the bottom of the heavy gunfire I heard this morning as I stood outside the front of my hotel, you could hear it right across the city - pistols, machine gun fire. But I also did see some of those fireworks in Green Square the authorities were talking about this morning.

Once the sun rose, it definitely took on a more celebratory feel - but it's still unclear what was going on in those pre-dawn hours.

4:45pm

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from Tripoli, describes the city as a "parallel universe".

Celebrations are still continuing for this 'great military victory' that teh people here in Tripoli seem to believe that Colnel Gaddafi's forces have already achieved ...

A colleague of mine, who works for the British Daily Telegraph, asked a few of the people in Green Square today what they actually did for a job - and after a lot of umming and ahhing, a lot of them admitted to him they were either army or police in civilian clothes filling up the numbers in the square - which, by the way, was not in any way full.

There is terrible anxiety here about the country falling into sectarian and tribal disunity - and that seems to be the great fear here - and that seems to be what they view as what Muammar Gaddafi's great gift has been - a man - the only man - who could unite Libya and keep it from falling into a thousand pieces by the evil actions of foreign powers and foreign interference - not just Al Jazeera.


4:18pm

A doctor in Misurata, named Khaled, tells Al Jazeera:

I received three dead bodies and many injured people from fighting this morning. We are impartial, we must treat everyone. But we need more drugs and emergency kits. We have a lot of needs.

4:16pm

Al Jazeera's Jacky Rowland tells us of the panic on the ground sparked by the airstike in Ras Lanuf.

People were jumping in their pickup trucks and heading east very quickly. Then when the immediate danger, they stormed west again, toward Bin Jawad, where fighting between pro- and anti-Gaddafi forces continues in the streets.


4:00pm

A quick roundup of the current situation:

Gaddafi's government claims control of Benghazi and Tobruk in the far east of the country - denied by the Gaddafi opposition there. Airstrikes in the rebel-held Ras Lanuf have been reported. There is ongoing fighting in Bin Jawad, halfway between Ras Lanuf and Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte. Az Zawiyah, just west of Tripoli, remains under bombardment.

Philip
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Old 06 Mar 11, 11:57
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Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
Who wouldn't care about Rwanda? Are you saying we should ignore genocide?
The West has "ignored" genocide before when it did not suit their interests to intervene, nothing new here. I've been to several African countries before they went to Hell in a handbasket. Take it from me: if it were not for the West dumping billions in cash, most Africans would soon resort to ritualistic tribal killings and cannabalism.

I see only two solutions: 1 - recolonize with the intent on teaching these people how to live and govern themselves in a civilized, 21st century manner, payable with a portion of whatever resources/wealth they have to offer....or 2 - Leave them completely to their own devices. I for one, has lost all sympathy for them. They can keep their Mugabes and Malemas.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 13:18
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latest from Al Jazeera blog at http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/afri...log-march-6-0:


Quote:
8:03pm

Our colleagues at Al Jazeera Arabic report two dead and 30 injured in "hit and run" battles in Bin Jawad - between Ras Lanuf and Sirte - during the day

8:00pm

We're getting reports from Misurata that 16 Gaddafi soldiers, and 18 armed anti-Gaddafi fighters, were killed in today's fighting. There are at least 71 wounded, and nine in critical condition, we understand.

Four 4x4 vehicles with mounted rifles were reportedly captured, and one tank destroyed.

We're hoping to have someone on the phone, live from Misurata in the next few minutes. Tune in by clicking here.

7:47pm

Wondering why it should be Portugal to chair the Libya sanction committee at the UN? Those of you who study your diplomatic sciences will know they already chair the North Korea sanctions panel. Al Jazeera understands they see this extra responsibilty as a reward for their good work...

7:28pm

This video has emerged onine in the past few hours, and claims to show the city of Misurata after opposition fighters saw off attacks by Gaddafi's troops. It shows shell-damaged buildings and burnt out tanks. It's on Facebook, so we can't embed it here. To watch it, you'll have to click here. Like the other videos we've been sent via third-party sites, we've got no way of independently verifying its veracity.

7:33pm

An update from the Egyptian foreign ministry: 153,600 Egyptians have now returned home from Libya, while 30,000 citizens of third countries have now also entered.

7:15pm

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Benghazi, reveals more about those newly released British soldiers - apparently on a "diplomatic mission".

She reports they were found outside the town of Suluq, about 50km south of Benghazi - and at least 200km from any oil installations. British special forces had earlier helped to evacuate oil workers from facilities in the Libyan desert.

The eight were brought back to Benghazi, handed over to the National Council and rebel commanders.

One carried a diplomatic passport, while the other seven did not, confirm sources within the new "Libyan Transitional National Council".

Hoda reports the British said they had entered via the Egyptian border - but none had recent Egyptian entry or exit stamps in their passports.

Instead, Hoda's sources tell her, anti-Gaddafi fighters near Suluq saw a helicopter landing close to them early on Friday, investigated, came across the eight - and picked them up.

While claims of being on a diplomatic mission remain credible, she says, members of the National Council are asking: "Why didn't they just establish direct contact with us?"

While the troops remained tight-lipped when she saw them, Benghazi dock workers told her the first port of call for the HMS Cumberland - which has been evacuating British nationals from Benghazi over the past weeks - would be Malta.

6:54pm

The latest blow to Gaddafi's diplomatic corps - now it's the turn of the Libyan general consul in Mali to resign his post.

He told Al Jazeera Arabic that he had quit, saying "the mission for which he was designated did not materialise". Al-Koni also categorically denied that mercenaries came from the Tuareg tribe, and called on countries and humanitarian organisations to protect the tribe.


6:25pm

Al Jazeera Arabic reports that Gaddafi has called for an UN or AU inquiry "to review the Libyan situation" and suggested that France could lead the committee. He also renewed his accusation of the Libyan protesters taking hallucination pills - apparently distributed to them by elements of al Qaeda.

Gaddafi again denied he had shot at his people - and that his commanders have not yet decided to attack. He then warned the West against a wave of immigrants into Europe - and of piracy and armed operations by those he described as "the Islamist hardliners".

On freezing his bank accounts and those of his close aides, Gaddafi said he was not in possession of anything but his tent . He defied the world to prove that he had owned a single dinar.

6:18pm

Confirmed: The eight members of a British mission earlier reported 'captured' in Benghazi have boarded the HMS Cumberland and have left the country, Al Jazeera's Hoda Hamid reports.

She saw them board the boat, and believes they are headed toward Malta. The ship's destination cannot be confirmed.

She also said she was shown an official letter explaining seven of them were providing the security detail for the eighth, a diplomat, who was attempting to get in contact with opposition forces.

Members of the opposition have said the eight were released, as anti-Gaddafi groups were also attempting to make contact with international diplomats.

On the surface, it's seen to be a bit of an embarassing misunderstanding for all sides involved. What more there is to be uncovered remains to be seen.

Opposition officials said the man carried advanced computer equipment with them, which they will display "in the near future".

We'll being you details as they emerge...

5:58pm

Catherine Ashton, EU foreign minister, has sent a "fact-finding mission" to Libya, led by Italian humanitarian assistance official Agostino Miozzo. Ashton said:

I have decided to dispatch this high level mission to provide me with first-hand, real-time information to feed into the discussions leading up to Friday's extraordinary European Council when I will update heads of state and government on the situation.

Philip
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Al Jazeera latest (from:http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/afri...blog-march-6-0)

9:25pm

We've just received this statement from the Libyan "National Transitional Council", detailing its meeting yesterday. It confirms some of what we've already told you. But here it is, from the horse's mouth. Apologies for the quality of the fax. But that's how we got it, and thought you'd appreciate getting it more quickly than we could re-type it...




9:15pm

After its first effort went so well, Britain will send a second "diplomatic" team to Libya, "in order to strengthen our dialogue", the UK foreign office has announced. A statement attributed to William Hague said:

This diplomatic effort is part of the UK’s wider work on Libya, including our ongoing humanitarian support. We continue to press for Gaddafi to step down and we will work with the international community to support the legitimate ambitions of the Libyan people.


9:12pm

The twitter account which purports to represent the Libyan "Transitional National Council" announces Omar el-Hariri at its "representative of Military Affairs for safety and security". More to come. Follow them @LibyanTNC

9:06pm

The Libyan Transitional National Council expects soon to be formally recognised by some countries, its head told Al Jazeera Arabic. Former justice minister Mustafa Abdul Jalil, formally appointed today to lead the council, said:

There are official contacts with European and Arab countries. Upon the release later today of a statement, some countries will announce their recognition.

He also said a military force, led by defecting members of the Libyan army, would make its way to the strategic Mediterranean coast city of Sirte, held by some 4,000 Gaddafi loyalists, before heading on to the capital Tripoli.

9:00pm

The "Libyan National Transitional Council", based in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, say Gaddafi's troops have been pushed out of Az Zawiyah and Misurata cities, respectively on the west and east of capital Tripoli - in the west of the country.

8:56pm

Our colleagues in our London newsroom tell us people appear to have ignored appeals on Twitter for a pro-Gaddafi demonstration called for outside the Libyan embassy in the British capital this afternoon.

A few dozen anti-Gaddafi protesters turned up, however.

8:45pm

The Libya Agency for Relief and Humanitarian Assistance is calling for aid to help shortages of food, medical supplies, fuel supplies and ambulances equipped to perform operations - as well as insulin for diabetics, hygiene pads for patients, water sanitation filters, communications equipment and LPG liquid gas.

If you have access to any of those things, you can get in touch with them by clicking here.

8:20pm

Commanders of the armed anti-Gaddafi fighters tell Al Jazeera Arabic that they have not received any contact from Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez regarding his offer of mediation talks.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 16:14
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Rebels speaking to the BBC in the past hour have asked the west for pinpoint airstrikes against Gadhaffi's forces. They are also having problems with supplies, ammunition and fuel.

This from Al Jareera:

Quote:
In the east, however, there's still a shortage of fuel. The 'interim government' in Benghazi has requested fuel, so their vehicles can move around and attempt to liberate other areas - but they need food and medicines - and they want international recognition as the new government of Libya.

I've heard they have about 8-10 days of fuel to food suplies, so pretty quickly, this will become a crisis.
Philip
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Old 06 Mar 11, 17:08
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Someday the West & East will forget about most of the African nations due to economic circumstances in their own countries. If this does occur you will see millions starve and millions more dead due to conflict. If this does happen expect huge amounts of refugees hitting land in southern Europe.
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Old 06 Mar 11, 18:39
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Al Jazeera latest:

Quote:
1.05am

Mohammed Ali, the member of the civil committee for Misurata affairs, tells Al Jazeera that rebels are in control of the area.

"We have also captured some Gaddafi [government] soldier], and we will interrorgate them. They will shown on televion on Monday," he said.

Our amoury is not a lot, but we have moral strangth. We also need specific outside help, and a no fly zone is long overdue."
Philip
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