HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Civil War

Notices and Announcements

American Civil War The American Civil War.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 21 Feb 11, 11:14
renrich's Avatar
renrich renrich is offline
Corporal
United_States
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Prescott Valley
Posts: 58
renrich is on the path to success [1-99]
Grognard got it right. It was a counterattack during The Wilderness. When Lee found out that the counterattack against the advance along the Orange Plank road of Hancock and Burnside was to be led by the Texas Brigade, Lee said "Texans always move them!" His remark was heard by the troops closest to him and the Texas Brigade, composed of around 800 men of the First, Fourth and Fifth Texas and the Third Arkansas began to cheer. At that point Lee spurred Traveller forward in an effort to lead the charge and the Texas Brigade began to shout "Lee to the rear." After Traveller was led to the rear by a sergeant, the charge was made. The Texas Brigade advanced so fast the supporting brigades of Benning and Law were left far behind and as Law's brigade passed Lee he called out, " Alabama soldiers, all I ask of you is to keep up with the Texans." The Union advance was stopped by this charge but the Texas Brigade reportedly lost 565 men out of 811. The Brigade was shattered. Above is from "Hood's Texas Brigade, Lee's Grenadier Guard" by Colonel Harold B Simpson.

I believe there is some truth in the proposition that the Anglo Celt influence in the South had an impact on the way the war was conducted as well as the actual onset of the war. There is an interesting book by David Hackett Fischer, "Albion's Seed" which traces the migration of the settlers from different sections of Britain to America. These settlers brought divergent values to the New World where they established distinctive regional cultures that remain even today. The most numerous of all these migrations were the Backcountry Borderers who came in the period 1717-1775, from parts of Scotland, Northern Ireland and the border counties of Northern England. "The majority were farmers and farm laborers and they brought with them an oral culture in which writing was less important than the spoken word."
The concept of honor was of paramount importance to this group and they brought with them a distrust of the English. Some historians have said that the Revolutionary War would not have taken place without the influence of the Back Country Borderers. These Anglo Celts were predominately Protestant and should not be confused with the later arriving Catholic Irish. Many of the Confederate soldiers had ancestors who were these Borderers and they shared their combative, argumentative ways and their warrior mentality. The Union army comprised many races and languages and a number of religions. Many were literate. The Confederate army was predominately Anglo Celt, Protestant, spoke English and many were illiterate.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 21 Feb 11, 11:35
Kaiser Franz's Avatar
Kaiser Franz Kaiser Franz is offline
General of the Forums
Austria
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign SPQR Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gery
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmond
Posts: 10,580
Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500]
Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500] Kaiser Franz is a jewel in the rough [500]
Nice post renrich

__________________
I like Dogs far better than most People

As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

BoRG
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 21 Feb 11, 13:57
renrich's Avatar
renrich renrich is offline
Corporal
United_States
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Prescott Valley
Posts: 58
renrich is on the path to success [1-99]
Much obliged. There was a book, entitled "Traveller" by the author of "Watershp Down," an Englishman I believe that had an amusing account of the incident with the Texas Brigade and Lee. This book was essentially a conversation between Traveller, stabled at the college where Lee was employed after the war, and a cat in the stable. Traveller told the cat that he was terrified when Lee spurred forward and offered to lead the charge of the Texas Brigade. Traveller knew that he would be at the forefront, be the biggest target and would get killed. Fortunately Lee stayed back and Traveller, a Morgan horse I believe, lived.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 21 Feb 11, 14:15
mikeck's Avatar
mikeck mikeck is offline
Major
United_States
 
Real Name: Mike
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: naples
Posts: 1,071
mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100] mikeck has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Well, Call Grant what you will. The army of the Potomac under his direction during the 40 days campaign sustained as mnay casualties as it had for the entire was up to that date....BUT by April 1864 the Army was in basically the same sutiation t had been 2.5 years earlier. In 40 days Grant did what the army had been unable to do before then...take Lee's army out of the war. If it took a bunch of causlties to do it, so be it. For what is a life better spent, victory, or stalemate. Who wasted more lives??? McClellan conducting a series of unnecessary retreats acrtoss the peninsula or Grant in pushing Lee into seige in Petersburg and taking them out of the war?

Lee was no butcher either. I think his plan at Gettyburg was solid. Had Stuart not been repulsed by Custer behind the lines, his cavalry Corps would have hit the Union reserves at the height of the charge and things may have been different.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 21 Feb 11, 14:40
Eric Wittenberg's Avatar
Eric Wittenberg Eric Wittenberg is offline
Lieutenant General
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Eric J. Wittenberg
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 3,233
Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500]
Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeck View Post
Lee was no butcher either. I think his plan at Gettyburg was solid. Had Stuart not been repulsed by Custer behind the lines, his cavalry Corps would have hit the Union reserves at the height of the charge and things may have been different.
What plan?

Surely, you're not referring to that nonsensical pile of garbage by Tom Carhart, are you?

I surely hope not, because there is not one single shred of historical evidence that can be identified that supports his claims. Not one, and having written a book about the fight on East Cavalry Field, I know exactly what's out there.

And, just for the record, it was David Gregg who commanded the Federal cavalry on East Cavalry Field, not Custer. Gregg ordered the charges of the 7th and 1st Michigan, not Custer.
__________________
"If you want to have some fun, jine the cavalry"

Maj. Gen. James Ewell Brown Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 21 Feb 11, 15:37
mgronski's Avatar
mgronski mgronski is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mike Gronski
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Posts: 1,295
mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99]
I was watching the Military channel on Gettysburg, and it came up with the sp called strategy of Stuart's and Custer charging Stuart in an open field (of all things) where Stuart is leading a column. You can't get much more innacurate a picture of the real event than that.
If Stuart really want to get into the action, he would have done that where he came from, not where he was going which would have led him more to where 6th Corps unless he came staight up the Baltimore Pike and he would have run into 12th corps and more artillery aimed at the Rock Creek area from the Union rear, not surprising anyone.
It is the second time I have heard of the "Stuart charge to Cemertary Hill" recently on TV...makes you wonder who their researchers are?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 21 Feb 11, 16:11
hellboy30's Avatar
hellboy30 hellboy30 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 8,626
hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900]
hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900] hellboy30 has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgronski View Post
I was watching the Military channel on Gettysburg, and it came up with the sp called strategy of Stuart's and Custer charging Stuart in an open field (of all things) where Stuart is leading a column. You can't get much more innacurate a picture of the real event than that.
If Stuart really want to get into the action, he would have done that where he came from, not where he was going which would have led him more to where 6th Corps unless he came staight up the Baltimore Pike and he would have run into 12th corps and more artillery aimed at the Rock Creek area from the Union rear, not surprising anyone.
It is the second time I have heard of the "Stuart charge to Cemertary Hill" recently on TV...makes you wonder who their researchers are?
Was that the God-Awful "Gettysburg Battle" that was on the Military channel? Talk about getting nearly everything wrong.....that show was a mess to watch.
__________________
The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 21 Feb 11, 16:18
Eric Wittenberg's Avatar
Eric Wittenberg Eric Wittenberg is offline
Lieutenant General
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Eric J. Wittenberg
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 3,233
Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500]
Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500] Eric Wittenberg is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgronski View Post
I was watching the Military channel on Gettysburg, and it came up with the sp called strategy of Stuart's and Custer charging Stuart in an open field (of all things) where Stuart is leading a column. You can't get much more innacurate a picture of the real event than that.
If Stuart really want to get into the action, he would have done that where he came from, not where he was going which would have led him more to where 6th Corps unless he came staight up the Baltimore Pike and he would have run into 12th corps and more artillery aimed at the Rock Creek area from the Union rear, not surprising anyone.
It is the second time I have heard of the "Stuart charge to Cemertary Hill" recently on TV...makes you wonder who their researchers are?
It makes for good press, Mike, and that God-awful book of Carhart's legitimizes it, because then they can say they relied on it.

Here's what I had to say about that book on my blog: http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=5. There's really not much to add to that.
__________________
"If you want to have some fun, jine the cavalry"

Maj. Gen. James Ewell Brown Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 21 Feb 11, 16:51
TomDeFranco's Avatar
TomDeFranco TomDeFranco is offline
Lieutenant General
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Tom DeFranco
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Norridge
Posts: 3,401
TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100] TomDeFranco has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellboy30 View Post
Was that the God-Awful "Gettysburg Battle" that was on the Military channel? Talk about getting nearly everything wrong.....that show was a mess to watch.
That was easily the worst military history documentary I've ever seen. I listed the inaccuracies in a post months ago. I counted 12 or 14 off the top of my head without having to refer to anything else.

Then there is the book that everyone in the know from Eric to Dave Powell says is a bunch of horse hockey. Before I saw and heard the reviews, I started reading it when it first came out at my local Borders. I decided not to buy it because it couldn't buy his arguments in the least.
__________________
I come here to discuss a piece of business with you and what are you gonna do? You're gonna tell me fairy tales? James Caan in the movie "Thief" ca 1981
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 21 Feb 11, 17:08
Irishtom29's Avatar
Irishtom29 Irishtom29 is offline
Staff Sergeant
United_States
 
Real Name: Tom Brennan
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 146
Irishtom29 is on the path to success [1-99] Irishtom29 is on the path to success [1-99]
Anglo-Celts from Scotland, Ulster and the Scot-English borderlands? Lowland Scots (the kind sent to Ulster) are a mainly Germanic people speaking Scots, a Germanic tongue. And of course the English are a Germanic people. The only Celts around back then were native "Catholic" Irish, Highland "Irish" Scots, Welsh, Bretons and some Cornish and Manx men. None of whom made very large contributions to southern culture.

Whatever the source of the cantakerousness of the old South I doubt it was Celtic; more likely a primitive Germanic thing. Note too the large (and largely unspoken) German (from Germany) contribution to the southern backcountry gene pool.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 21 Feb 11, 18:49
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 27,436
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Tom,

You are saying that Lowland Scots are a Germanic People? Scots is a Germanic language? The English are Germanic? You are claiming Manx are Celtic? Words fail me!

The peoples of the British isles are MIXED. The only way you can call SOME Lowland Scots "Germanic" is if you go and test their DNA. It would seem that many of the peoples of Eastern Britain were "Germanic" (Belgae) by these blood markers. Since there is little cultural difference between the "French" Celts and the tribes across the Rhine, I don't think "German" applies to them. It was this Celtic culture they were talking about.

Scots is Erse that has been next to the Northern "English" border too long. The languages on both sides are different, but usually intelligible to the locals. The Scots invaded the Lowlands after crossing from Ireland and used it as a base to subdue the Picts, which are not readily definable. The Picts may have been Celtic. The peoples along the Scot/English border are Celtic with mixtures of Vikings and Saxon. The peoples of Cumberland and Westmoreland were the last "Celtic" areas taken.

We have the Picts held as different because the Romans called them that. The Romans also divided the Gauls from "Germany". Julius Caesar did not want to go into "Germany" after he grabbed Gaul. There was nothing worth the taking in Germany, so Julius decided to differentiate them from the Gauls. The same thing happened in Scotland with different Roman Commanders.

Peoples from Denmark and Norway settled along the coastlines of the British Isles. The hard thing is they married local women or just mated with them, mixing up the blood markers. The Isle of Man had some "Norse" females brought in, but I am recalling that the Vikings killed all the males when they took the island. Later on Irish slaves were brought in. This is why the term "Irish" applies to the present day Manx. My Mother's paternal line came from Man. The name is still there but they don't spell it right (Tear instead of Teer). It would seem that all the Teers that could read and write emigrated. LOL!

I might recommend "The Steel Bonnets" by George MacDonald Fraser to you.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 21 Feb 11, 19:04
KICK's Avatar
KICK KICK is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barron Colliers Land
Posts: 8,711
KICK is a jewel in the rough [500]
KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Tom,

You are saying that Lowland Scots are a Germanic People? Scots is a Germanic language? The English are Germanic? You are claiming Manx are Celtic? Words fail me!

The peoples of the British isles are MIXED.

Pruitt

I'll take it further and say the whole world is MIXED..

the English language may be Germanic, with quite a bit of influence from Latin and Keltic languages, but the people aint.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 21 Feb 11, 19:33
mgronski's Avatar
mgronski mgronski is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mike Gronski
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Posts: 1,295
mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99] mgronski is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellboy30 View Post
Was that the God-Awful "Gettysburg Battle" that was on the Military channel? Talk about getting nearly everything wrong.....that show was a mess to watch.
It sure was, I would say the "Lee-Stuart attack theory" had to be a low point!

It is as if no one even looked at the maneuvering between union cavalry and rebel infantry on the Culp's Hill-Baltimore Pike area on the 2nd and 3rd days.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 21 Feb 11, 21:03
grognard's Avatar
grognard grognard is offline
General
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals Winner, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Worcester MASS
Posts: 4,219
grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200] grognard is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgronski View Post
It sure was, I would say the "Lee-Stuart attack theory" had to be a low point!

It is as if no one even looked at the maneuvering between union cavalry and rebel infantry on the Culp's Hill-Baltimore Pike area on the 2nd and 3rd days.
One of the many reasons i gave up on the history channel a while ago--little history, and too much of what there is is laughable, not history or even good speculation.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 21 Feb 11, 21:44
General Brock's Avatar
General Brock General Brock is offline
General of the Forums
Luxembourg
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: where ever
Posts: 5,849
General Brock has disabled reputation
What GG you don't like Ice Pilots or IRT that Lisa is hot and man
can she drive. But I do agree with you it does stink for the History
aspect of what it was set up for.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 22:28.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.