Do-17 vs Mosquito!

[Tiberius Duval]

Yes, I knew. But when one ask what is better aircraft age is not one criteria to be considered.

And de Havilland Mosquito simply is better plane in every sense. Better speed, higher ceiling, greater range, bigger bombload etc...

[panther3485]

Originally Posted by Matt Jones

I like both...laugh and point fingers if you want, but I was the person who chose the Do17.

-Matt

I'm glad somebody voted for it; I was beginning to feel sorry for the poor old thing.

[panther3485]

Originally Posted by Salinator

So IF the Germans had the Mosquito instead of Do-17 in late war, they could have bombed with impunity?

An aircraft with the balance of attributes of the Mosquito would have made hit-and-run light bombing/pinpoint attacks more feasible, with a much better chance of getting away. For the British, the Mosquito did not attack Germany/occupied territory with total impunity. Some were caught and shot down (IIRC Heinz Knocke got one, for example). But relatively few, compared to what would have happened to a plane that was 100mph slower!

[panther3485]

Originally Posted by Salinator

You do know that the Do-17 was discontinued for production by summer of 1940?

Yes, but this was because it was replaced in production by later, improved versions. Initially there was the Do 215, which had originally been intended as an export version of the Do 17, with DB601 engines. Only 112 were made. The major improvement came with the Do 217, of which 1,730 were built.

The Do 217 followed the same basic design concept and was very similar in appearance to the earlier variants, but was overall a bit larger (with about 1m more wingspan and 2m longer fuselage IIRC). It had better performance and load-carrying capability. The Do217 became a versatile bomber, strike aircraft and night fighter. The 217E was the first major sub-variant, entering service very late 1940. IIRC the night fighters - 217J and 217N - were the last main sub-types, entering active service around 1942 and being phased out during 1944.

If we were going to have a poll on Mossie vs. Dornier, it would probably have been fairer and more appropriate to compare the Mosquito with the Do 217 rather than the earlier Do 17, which was already becoming obsolescent in the early part of WW2. Even so, I think the Mossie would still emerge as easily the better of the two.

[Mountain Man]

No real choice - the Mosquito all the way.

[Acheron]

From what I read, I thought the Do 217 to be a radically different aircraft, especially in performance, not a light bomber by any means but one of the heaviest twin-engined bombers around? After all the Do 217 had four times the bomb load of the Do 17.

[101combatvet]

I think both aircraft were excellent in their own right.

[Pruitt]

Acheron,

The Do 17 was based on a design for a high speed transport. It was in a way similar to the Ju 52 and the DC 3 being used as bombers in the 30's. Almost any redesign of the Do 17 would have to enlarge it!

Pruitt

[panther3485]

Originally Posted by Acheron

From what I read, I thought the Do 217 to be a radically different aircraft, especially in performance, not a light bomber by any means but one of the heaviest twin-engined bombers around? After all the Do 217 had four times the bomb load of the Do 17.

"Radically different" would be an exaggeration. You'd only have to put scale models of the two types side-by-side to see that. They are very clearly the same family. 217 was the 'big brother', but born second. It's therefore probably more accurate to describe the 217 as an 'evolutionary' step forward from the 17/215. An enlarged re-vamp of the original if you like, but retaining the same general configuration and shape. The very considerable improvement in bombload was made feasible not only by the increase in performance (more wing area and engine power) but also by the re-design of the fuselage (wider and deeper) which allowed a more realistic internal capacity.

[Acheron]

I guess it depends on the definition of evolutionary step vs radically new design. I think I specifically read that the Do 217 was a new design with little in common with the Do 17 specifically despite the similarities in outward appearance.

[panther3485]

Originally Posted by Acheron

I guess it depends on the definition of evolutionary step vs radically new design. I think I specifically read that the Do 217 was a new design with little in common with the Do 17 specifically despite the similarities in outward appearance.

I suppose that would depend on what is meant by "a new design"; and "little in common". If you look at scale drawings of the two types side by side, it's obvious that there is more in common than merely "similarities in outward appearance". The whole design concept and configuration are obviously copied one from the other. Essentially, they had taken the same basic design, enlarged it, re-shaped the fuselage for greater capacity and provided more engine power.

So, in one sense it is "new" but in another it is not.

[the ace]

Wasn't the Do 217 a bit of a dog as a night-fighter ?

[panther3485]

Originally Posted by the ace

Wasn't the Do 217 a bit of a dog as a night-fighter ?

From my reading, it was adapted for the role starting active service in 1942 as the Do 217J; mainly due to a shortage of night-fighters. The earliest ones (J1) lacked radar but these were quickly relegated to training and replaced in frontline service with the J2, carrying Lichtenstein radar. This sub-type served with eight Luftwaffe gruppen but had been phased out of service by early 1944. The following sub-types, 217N-1 and N-2, had variations of radar fitted but were also phased out during 1944.

The Do 217 night fighters, apparently, had been regarded as passably capable but not particularly good; essentially serving as a 'stop gap' until larger numbers of other more efficient types became available.

[Brummbar33]

Dehaviland Mosquito.

[Acheron]

Originally Posted by panther3485

From my reading, it was adapted for the role starting active service in 1942 as the Do 217J; mainly due to a shortage of night-fighters. The earliest ones (J1) lacked radar but these were quickly relegated to training and replaced in frontline service with the J2, carrying Lichtenstein radar. This sub-type served with eight Luftwaffe gruppen but had been phased out of service by early 1944. The following sub-types, 217N-1 and N-2, had variations of radar fitted but were also phased out during 1944.

The Do 217 night fighters, apparently, had been regarded as passably capable but not particularly good; essentially serving as a 'stop gap' until larger numbers of other more efficient types became available.

From what I gathered, while the Do-17 was a nimble light bomber, the Do-217 somewhat deserved its Luftwaffe designation of heavy bomber, having a higher payload than any other German bomber worth mentioning (He-111, Ju-88, Ju-188, though the last one is debateable), so I would imagine the Do-217 to be rather sluggish in exchange.

EDIT: in tropical climates, I would prefer the Do-17 over anything but later Mosquitos. For all its faults, the Do-17 didn't tend to disintegrate mid-air.