HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Citizens Coliseum

Notices and Announcements

Citizens Coliseum Community Generated Tournaments

View Poll Results: Which aircraft do you prefer?
DO-17 2 4.00%
Dehaviland Mosquito 48 96.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 12 Feb 12, 06:16
Tiberius Duval's Avatar
Tiberius Duval Tiberius Duval is online now
Lieutenant Colonel
Finland
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Turku
Posts: 1,201
Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99] Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99] Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99] Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99] Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99] Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99] Tiberius Duval is on the path to success [1-99]
Yes, I knew. But when one ask what is better aircraft age is not one criteria to be considered.

And de Havilland Mosquito simply is better plane in every sense. Better speed, higher ceiling, greater range, bigger bombload etc...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12 Feb 12, 07:38
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,574
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Jones View Post
I like both...laugh and point fingers if you want, but I was the person who chose the Do17.

-Matt
I'm glad somebody voted for it; I was beginning to feel sorry for the poor old thing.
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12 Feb 12, 07:42
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,574
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
So IF the Germans had the Mosquito instead of Do-17 in late war, they could have bombed with impunity?
An aircraft with the balance of attributes of the Mosquito would have made hit-and-run light bombing/pinpoint attacks more feasible, with a much better chance of getting away. For the British, the Mosquito did not attack Germany/occupied territory with total impunity. Some were caught and shot down (IIRC Heinz Knocke got one, for example). But relatively few, compared to what would have happened to a plane that was 100mph slower!
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12 Feb 12, 07:59
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,574
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
You do know that the Do-17 was discontinued for production by summer of 1940?
Yes, but this was because it was replaced in production by later, improved versions. Initially there was the Do 215, which had originally been intended as an export version of the Do 17, with DB601 engines. Only 112 were made. The major improvement came with the Do 217, of which 1,730 were built.

The Do 217 followed the same basic design concept and was very similar in appearance to the earlier variants, but was overall a bit larger (with about 1m more wingspan and 2m longer fuselage IIRC). It had better performance and load-carrying capability. The Do217 became a versatile bomber, strike aircraft and night fighter. The 217E was the first major sub-variant, entering service very late 1940. IIRC the night fighters - 217J and 217N - were the last main sub-types, entering active service around 1942 and being phased out during 1944.

If we were going to have a poll on Mossie vs. Dornier, it would probably have been fairer and more appropriate to compare the Mosquito with the Do 217 rather than the earlier Do 17, which was already becoming obsolescent in the early part of WW2. Even so, I think the Mossie would still emerge as easily the better of the two.
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!

Last edited by panther3485; 12 Feb 12 at 08:09..
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12 Feb 12, 12:59
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 51,074
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
No real choice - the Mosquito all the way.
__________________
Ipso custodes, custodiet est?"
"Who watches the watchers"\?"
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 15 Feb 12, 14:15
Acheron's Avatar
Acheron Acheron is offline
Major General
Germany
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near Munich
Posts: 2,529
Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300]
From what I read, I thought the Do 217 to be a radically different aircraft, especially in performance, not a light bomber by any means but one of the heaviest twin-engined bombers around? After all the Do 217 had four times the bomb load of the Do 17.
__________________
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
- Anatole France
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 15 Feb 12, 14:29
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 7,761
101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500]
101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500] 101combatvet is a jewel in the rough [500]
I think both aircraft were excellent in their own right.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 15 Feb 12, 14:41
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 5 Year Service Ribbon Distinguished Service Award 
Summer Campaign Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 17,832
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Acheron,

The Do 17 was based on a design for a high speed transport. It was in a way similar to the Ju 52 and the DC 3 being used as bombers in the 30's. Almost any redesign of the Do 17 would have to enlarge it!

Pruitt
__________________
Ted Nugent quote to the Troops: "It may be a week until deer hunting season, but its open season on a**holes all year long!"

Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 15 Feb 12, 16:38
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,574
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
From what I read, I thought the Do 217 to be a radically different aircraft, especially in performance, not a light bomber by any means but one of the heaviest twin-engined bombers around? After all the Do 217 had four times the bomb load of the Do 17.
"Radically different" would be an exaggeration. You'd only have to put scale models of the two types side-by-side to see that. They are very clearly the same family. 217 was the 'big brother', but born second. It's therefore probably more accurate to describe the 217 as an 'evolutionary' step forward from the 17/215. An enlarged re-vamp of the original if you like, but retaining the same general configuration and shape. The very considerable improvement in bombload was made feasible not only by the increase in performance (more wing area and engine power) but also by the re-design of the fuselage (wider and deeper) which allowed a more realistic internal capacity.
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!

Last edited by panther3485; 15 Feb 12 at 16:44..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 16 Feb 12, 00:51
Acheron's Avatar
Acheron Acheron is offline
Major General
Germany
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near Munich
Posts: 2,529
Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300]
I guess it depends on the definition of evolutionary step vs radically new design. I think I specifically read that the Do 217 was a new design with little in common with the Do 17 specifically despite the similarities in outward appearance.
__________________
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
- Anatole France
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 16 Feb 12, 03:33
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,574
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
I guess it depends on the definition of evolutionary step vs radically new design. I think I specifically read that the Do 217 was a new design with little in common with the Do 17 specifically despite the similarities in outward appearance.
I suppose that would depend on what is meant by "a new design"; and "little in common". If you look at scale drawings of the two types side by side, it's obvious that there is more in common than merely "similarities in outward appearance". The whole design concept and configuration are obviously copied one from the other. Essentially, they had taken the same basic design, enlarged it, re-shaped the fuselage for greater capacity and provided more engine power.

So, in one sense it is "new" but in another it is not.
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 16 Feb 12, 05:25
the ace's Avatar
the ace the ace is offline
Lieutenant General
Scotland
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Andrew
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 3,930
the ace is a jewel in the rough [500]
the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500]
Wasn't the Do 217 a bit of a dog as a night-fighter ?
__________________
"But surely, Mr Salmond, you have a secret agenda ?"

"Oh come on, Kirsty ! It's hardly a secret that Alex Salmond and the Scottish National Party want independence for Scotland."
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 16 Feb 12, 10:10
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,574
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Wasn't the Do 217 a bit of a dog as a night-fighter ?
From my reading, it was adapted for the role starting active service in 1942 as the Do 217J; mainly due to a shortage of night-fighters. The earliest ones (J1) lacked radar but these were quickly relegated to training and replaced in frontline service with the J2, carrying Lichtenstein radar. This sub-type served with eight Luftwaffe gruppen but had been phased out of service by early 1944. The following sub-types, 217N-1 and N-2, had variations of radar fitted but were also phased out during 1944.

The Do 217 night fighters, apparently, had been regarded as passably capable but not particularly good; essentially serving as a 'stop gap' until larger numbers of other more efficient types became available.
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!

Last edited by panther3485; 16 Feb 12 at 10:15..
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 17 Feb 12, 18:21
Brummbar33's Avatar
Brummbar33 Brummbar33 is offline
Captain
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 882
Brummbar33 is on the path to success [1-99] Brummbar33 is on the path to success [1-99] Brummbar33 is on the path to success [1-99] Brummbar33 is on the path to success [1-99] Brummbar33 is on the path to success [1-99] Brummbar33 is on the path to success [1-99]
Smile

Dehaviland Mosquito.
__________________
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.-George S. Patton
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 18 Feb 12, 10:56
Acheron's Avatar
Acheron Acheron is offline
Major General
Germany
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near Munich
Posts: 2,529
Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300] Acheron is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
From my reading, it was adapted for the role starting active service in 1942 as the Do 217J; mainly due to a shortage of night-fighters. The earliest ones (J1) lacked radar but these were quickly relegated to training and replaced in frontline service with the J2, carrying Lichtenstein radar. This sub-type served with eight Luftwaffe gruppen but had been phased out of service by early 1944. The following sub-types, 217N-1 and N-2, had variations of radar fitted but were also phased out during 1944.

The Do 217 night fighters, apparently, had been regarded as passably capable but not particularly good; essentially serving as a 'stop gap' until larger numbers of other more efficient types became available.
From what I gathered, while the Do-17 was a nimble light bomber, the Do-217 somewhat deserved its Luftwaffe designation of heavy bomber, having a higher payload than any other German bomber worth mentioning (He-111, Ju-88, Ju-188, though the last one is debateable), so I would imagine the Do-217 to be rather sluggish in exchange.

EDIT: in tropical climates, I would prefer the Do-17 over anything but later Mosquitos. For all its faults, the Do-17 didn't tend to disintegrate mid-air.
__________________
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
- Anatole France
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:49.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.