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  #31  
Old 17 Feb 11, 07:29
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GDS-Starfury

I was going to do a point-by-point rebuttal but I'll just say this instead. I come to this forum almost every day. I read well over half of the subforums at least occasionally. Yet there are only a few topics that I post on, small arms, the modern British Army and gun laws being a few of them. Why? Because I'm here to learn and I'm not an expert in other fields. There are plenty of them here that I learn from. What I'm trying to say is, you don't have to post on every subject, especially ones that you're not famiiar with. Like the old saying goes-"Keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool instead of opening it and removing all doubt".
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  #32  
Old 17 Feb 11, 07:40
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Originally Posted by llkinak View Post
Oh, yeah, I can't get enough of Big John's love missle. Give it a try sometime princess, you might never go back to the ladies.
Geez, thanks...I think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sino Invasion View Post
For a .45cal with a 3in or 4in barrel for concealed carry? I was leaning towards a Kimber with Crimson Trace grips. It was certainly pricey.

I'd appreciate your recommendations given the above parameters.
I wouldn't trust any 1911-style pistol with less than a 4.25in barrel, not just Kimbers. Let me explain...When a 1911 is shortened that much, it greatly reduces the amount of slide travel to the rear. It also increases the slide speed. So, extraction, ejection and feeding of the new cartridge all have to take place in a shorter dwell time. The magazine springs also have to be stronger to force the new cartridge up faster. The barrel tilting angle is also increased from a 5in gun. All these things contribute to a gun where everything has to happen perfectly every time. With variations in ammo and such, it just ain't going to happen. For a plinking gun it's no problem, but for a serious defense pistol where you might not have a perfect grip or locked wrist every time, I wouldn't trust it.
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  #33  
Old 17 Feb 11, 08:07
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Ok...

Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Geez, thanks...I think!

I wouldn't trust any 1911-style pistol with less than a 4.25in barrel, not just Kimbers. Let me explain...When a 1911 is shortened that much, it greatly reduces the amount of slide travel to the rear. It also increases the slide speed. So, extraction, ejection and feeding of the new cartridge all have to take place in a shorter dwell time. The magazine springs also have to be stronger to force the new cartridge up faster. The barrel tilting angle is also increased from a 5in gun. All these things contribute to a gun where everything has to happen perfectly every time. With variations in ammo and such, it just ain't going to happen. For a plinking gun it's no problem, but for a serious defense pistol where you might not have a perfect grip or locked wrist every time, I wouldn't trust it.
I was aware of those problems. I thought Kimber had had pretty much "fixed" them by specifically designing a new gun for the shorter barrel lengths. You seem to be implying on wrong on that assumption.
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  #34  
Old 17 Feb 11, 08:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sino Invasion View Post
I was aware of those problems. I thought Kimber had had pretty much "fixed" them by specifically designing a new gun for the shorter barrel lengths. You seem to be implying on wrong on that assumption.
A 1911 is a 1911 is a 1911. Don't get hung up on barrel length. It's the grip that determines how concealable a gun is. It's the part that sticks out. The barrel just goes down the length of your pants. It's mostly a psychological thing. When you first start carrying, you think that everyone on the street knows it. They don't because everyone is afraid that they'll get caught looking at someone else.
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  #35  
Old 17 Feb 11, 09:13
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Good point...

Thanks.

What do you think about the Crimson Trace lasergrips? Or the Laserlyte product line?
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  #36  
Old 17 Feb 11, 10:43
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I have to second DARKPLACE's comments.

A military planner has to consider the weight and space requirements of a backup weapon against giving a troop something else to carry that will further his/her primary mission.

Outside of military LEOs, no one actually uses a pistol unless his machine-gun/tank/fighter-bomber is broken or out of ammo.

As far as experience, when I was on a brigade staff (ages ago) my TO&E authorized weapon was a pistol. I drew an M-16 and re-qualified with it almost every year.

My two cents.
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  #37  
Old 17 Feb 11, 11:11
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You also have to account for the people using the weapon. There are a lot of females in the services these days that go right up to the front. That means users having smaller bodies, mass and hands. Some females and small males can not handle a 45 pistol.

Pruitt
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  #38  
Old 17 Feb 11, 11:59
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I dont know if its the same in the US services but I have got the impression in the British ones that the pistol just isnt taken seriously as a weapon, or at least as seriously as the rifle say.

As a result the training just isnt up to it and that a lot of the issues when it comes to stopability and reliability are, in my very limited experience, pretty much always due to not hitting the target in the first place and the weapon wasnt cleaned regularly enough or in some cases properly.

Its not often that its actually the weapons fault although obviously given the above the lack of training can emphasise the limitations of a weapon.

If people are trained and familiar with the weapon and most importantly confident in their abilities with it then an average weapon design becomes an excellent tool in action.



Personally I would still be looking for a white flag though.
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  #39  
Old 17 Feb 11, 14:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
You also have to account for the people using the weapon. There are a lot of females in the services these days that go right up to the front. That means users having smaller bodies, mass and hands. Some females and small males can not handle a 45 pistol.

Pruitt
Funny you bring that up. I've got fairly short fingers myself and I find the M1911 and similar weapons with a single column magazine more comfortable to grip than most of the 9 mm weapons I've tried.

Good point though. Military procurement is about equipping the whole force.
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  #40  
Old 17 Feb 11, 17:03
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When it comes to this topic, opinions really are like a$$holes...everybody has one. My firearms experience is to put it mildly, extensive and consists of a lifetime of both civilian and military shooting. That being said, on topics like this, I no more value my opinion than say the opinion of a civilian enthusiast like Starfury. He's made some valid points and what works for him, may not work for someone else.

For the most part, I tend to disagree with the general statement that Kimber makes poor quality guns. I've owned many in my years of shooting and never had any problems. However, I can understand why someone would not want to buy a gun made by the former outlaw biker in Yonkers, NY...I mean really, Yonkers?!?!

I can't say anything positive about the Kimber solo. Its craptastic. I handled this turkey at SHOT. Looks nice until you pick it up and attempt to rack the slide with the 32 lb recoil spring in it. Yeah, and it is another big dead weight of a "pocket nine", with a fat top-heavy slide and all-steel frame. For the a$$tastic qualities in this turkey, you might as well carry a real 1911 .45 instead of a pipsquek Euro-queer 9mm.

I've been really disappointed with the new compact 9mm market.

Has anyone shot the Sig P290? I thought this was going to be a great "off-duty" gun but it is a big turd. Again, I handled it at SHOT and walked away disgusted. SIG, who sometimes nails it, once again proves that they are clueless perhaps 80% of the time.

The gun is nothing more than a chopped-up P250, which is a big fat wide load of crap. The P290 is also a chopped-up big fat wide load of crap, and also much heavier than a dinky little 9mm warrants, due to an ENORMOUS BULL BARREL and fat slide. What retard designed this thing?

Only the SIG-Aid drinkers will run to the store to buy this one.

Last edited by Jarhead0331; 17 Feb 11 at 17:07..
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  #41  
Old 17 Feb 11, 17:28
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It seems to me like unless you suck at aiming then a pistol's a pistol and a bullet's a bullet-I'm sure if you aim for the head or center of the chest you'll kill anyone with anything at a pistol's practical range.
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  #42  
Old 17 Feb 11, 18:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKPLACE View Post
I dont know if its the same in the US services but I have got the impression in the British ones that the pistol just isnt taken seriously as a weapon, or at least as seriously as the rifle say.
I have that impression as well -I mainly read about WWI, where sources seem to indicate the pistol was occasionally used in trench fighting, but not so useful as to actually train people how to use it. That and the role of the officer's pistol in persuading reluctant men which way they are supposed to be fighting, on occasion...

Of course, things might have changed, perhaps some of you with more current knowledge can let me know.
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Old 17 Feb 11, 22:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sino Invasion View Post
Thanks.

What do you think about the Crimson Trace lasergrips? Or the Laserlyte product line?
Crimson Trace makes good products, Laserlyte makes crap. We stopped carrying Laserlyte because close to 50% of them had to sent back.
I believe that the best use for a laser is in dryfire practice. There's nothing that shows you jerking the trigger like that little red dot dancing all over the target.
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  #44  
Old 18 Feb 11, 12:27
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I don't accuse other members of being dimwits for not having enough experience shooting guns, I don't care if you have 70 years or 7 minutes, if you have shot a round and can observe how the gun did and felt then great. I've noticed some people will stand by a gun no matter how much people talk **** about it. I have shot all types of pistols, but I am not going to brag about it. Ok a little bit; I've shot .38s and .44s revolvers, 9mm and .45 cal pistols. In terms of accuracy and firepower the 1911 is my favorite. Just a preference thing. Although in terms of fear value and firepower, the .44 magnum is my choice. But we're talking about an infantry sidearm, right?

I still see a need for a pistol in the armed forces, especially in close quarters combat. Unless you have a carbine, submachine gun or folding stock and/or short barreled rifle, a pistol is just as effective at indoor fighting. So for units who are in deployed in urban settings, don't you think a pistol would be a good option to have?
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  #45  
Old 18 Feb 11, 13:39
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Many more men have been killed by 9x19 rounds than by 45 ACP, that is a hard fact refuting the overrated capacity of the 45 ACP round.

Army sidearms fall in two categories:

- 1 Defensive weapon for whoever doesn't need to carry and shoot a rifle as primary weapon

- 2 Offensive weapons for specialized units.


For category 1, the caliber and type of pistol is unimportant, the pistol is a moral booster rather than a day to day tool.

For Category 2, these specialized units have their own purchasing system and buy what they think is best for them, and the regular military pistol in use is at the bottom of their wish list.

If the M9 Beretta pistols in service with the US military are reaching the end of their useful life, a replacement pistol with a composite frame in 9mm is the most likely choice.

kelt

Last edited by kelt06; 18 Feb 11 at 17:34.. Reason: added signture
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