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  #1  
Old 16 Feb 11, 16:13
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Upgrading the Military Sidearm

If the military were to upgrade the sidearm, which would be the ideal pistol?

According to the article below, some are saying it's the XD45.

Quote:
The Marine Corps needs a new Service pistol, a new all-mission sidearm. For its day (designed between 1970 and 1975), the Beretta Model 92 or M9 9mm Service pistol was a unique and advanced weapon, but that day occurred close to 40 years ago. Today the field of potential Service pistols brims over with better alternatives for ballistics, feel, balance, overall characteristics, and cost. No better example exists than the new Springfield Armory XD, a .45 caliber modern tactical pistol. For all of the above reasons, as well as its power, magazine capacity, and general tactical potential, the Marine Corps should seriously consider moving to a Springfield XD-45 as a Service pistol.

Read full article at:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=41786&s=rcmp
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette
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  #2  
Old 16 Feb 11, 17:02
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Eh. It's just another pistol offering no real advantages over what has been or is currently issued. Glocks, 1911's, Sigs, Berettas, it's all about the same. They've been trying to replace 1911s for close to a century now and we keep coming back to it. No Taurus's, Rossi's, Desert Eagles or things of that level of quality, but the differences between the first several I mentioned are negligible.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 17:24
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Kimber ICQB
SIG Sauer P226
Browning Hi-Power
Heckler & Koch USP or MK23 Mod 0
Smith & Wesson SW99 or M&P

these handguns are a few that are worth
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Old 16 Feb 11, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frtigern View Post
Kimber ICQB
SIG Sauer P226
Browning Hi-Power
Heckler & Koch USP or MK23 Mod 0
Smith & Wesson SW99 or M&P

these handguns are a few that are worth
I can tell that you don't have much (if any) practical real world handgun experience.
Kimbers are overpriced, underperforming guns. They spend much more money on advertising than product testing.
The SIG is a good gun, but their QC has gone downhill since they hired the guy the "built" Kimber (notice a pattern).
The Browning Hipower is an even older design than the Beretta.
The HK USP is close to being dropped. It has been superceded by both the P2000 and P30. The MK23 is a huge, clunky gun that really serves no purpose.
The SW99 is (was) a copy of the Walther P99 which isn't being produced anymore.
The M&P- finally you mention a decent gun, but it's no better than the XD, Glock or Beretta PX4.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 17:49
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Eh, not a big fan of the M&P. They finally got it worked out, but it's not anything special. The H&K is nice, possibly too nice.

Really, when it comes down to it, it's all about the caliber and reliabilty. All you need in the weapon is unquestioned reliability. The vast majority of quality sidearms have the accuracy required. After all, a sidearm really only needs to be accurate at 50yds or less, and all the quality ones can.

The only concerns are the caliber, and how it relates to logistics and ammo capacity.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 18:01
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My inclination would be to go back to the 1911 but in 38 Super rather than 45 ACP.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 18:57
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I just qualified for the Texas CHL with a 1911 and agree with llniak that nothing is really a big improvement in accuracy and certainly stopping power.

I will admit to jealously over the 15 round mags that the Glocks and the like that the other guys were shooting. Reload time, even with four 1911 mags, is nice with the newer models.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 19:04
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it seems not even the military is immune to the ill-ness of "newer must be better"

i've honestly wondered how much more advanced pistols can really get. ya you can have pistols that fire in bursts or full auto, but i'd say you're screwed any way if you're relying on a pistol and that you'd want a bit more accuracy from a semi-auto pistol than from a full auto.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 19:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renrich View Post
My inclination would be to go back to the 1911 but in 38 Super rather than 45 ACP.
There is so little difference between 38 Super and 9mm in the +P (NATO pressure) loadings that it's not worth it.
That being said, I have a Colt 38 Super on order, mainly for nostalgic reasons.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 19:18
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Keep in mind, its not only reliability they are looking for, but I also suspect weight.

IMHO, both the M9 and 1911 are pretty heavy (and noticibly bigger) in comparison to a glock.

For their function as a sidearm, the weight doesn't help unless you really want to use it for a hammer.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 21:15
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do you folks shoot much?
lets start with the fact that a +P round is not NATO pressure. its a round thats over stuffed with powder to achieve a higher velocity. in the case of the .45 it makes a very noticable difference in recoil while at the same time beating the crap out of your hand and more importantly beating the crap out of your weapon.
now lets talk about the idea behind different calibers that would actually be used by the military.
9mm is to put up a wall of lead for cover fire so you can get away or suppress your target. its not a bad round but its not great at the one shot stop.
.45 is a great round to simply drop a person. the problem is that its a larger round and as such few are carried. there arnt a lot of pistols that overcome this.
.40 is something of the middle ground between the .45 and 9mm. IMHO its the best of the bunch because it has a higher velocity then the .45, has more stopping power then the 9mm and you can carry lots of em.
the sharper of you will note Im not including the 5.7 round. this is because, while its an excellent round, its rather uncommon in the US and the US military really really like commonality.
as for the pistols mentioned you can forget the glock. aint gonna happen
Beretta's been the kid on the block and if the US military is going to get something else it'll probably go to another company.
Kimber is simply to expensive and despite the ill informed opinions above it happens to be an excellent firearm.
Spingfield is my choice. more specificly the XD(m) .40 simple to break down and clean, very accurate, very good round with lots of them (16) and much more durable then the glock. if however the military wants to go back the .45 the Springfield is still a great choice as that model XD(m) can carry 13.

Last edited by GDS_Starfury; 16 Feb 11 at 21:18..
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Old 16 Feb 11, 21:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKnight3 View Post
Keep in mind, its not only reliability they are looking for, but I also suspect weight.

IMHO, both the M9 and 1911 are pretty heavy (and noticibly bigger) in comparison to a glock.

For their function as a sidearm, the weight doesn't help unless you really want to use it for a hammer.
Well, some may think so, but to me there's not enough difference in weight between the Glocks, Berettas, and 1911s when all are loaded to make any difference. Also, and I realize you didn't bring this one up, I tend to ignore any imagined difference in "stopping power" when it comes to pistols in the major calibers. By that I mean there's no real difference between a .45, a .40, a 9mm, a .357, a 38 super, a 10mm, or a 357 sig. With pistols of this range all that matters is where the hole goes. A 9mm to the heart lung area is going to have the same result as a .45 to the same spot. On the other hand, a 10mm to the shoulder will do the same thing as a 38 super to the identical location. I basically consider stopping power a myth with handguns unless you turn the lights out. Even pistol rounds to the heart leave the target able to return fire for a couple of seconds, which is more than enough time for him to stick you back.
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Old 16 Feb 11, 21:24
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just to be honest, Ive shot most of the pistols mentioned above but the weapon I own is a XD .40
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Old 16 Feb 11, 21:35
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Quote:
do you folks shoot much?
Yep. real world and range, how about yourself?
Quote:
lets start with the fact that a +P round is not NATO pressure. its a round thats over stuffed with powder to achieve a higher velocity. in the case of the .45 it makes a very noticable difference in recoil while at the same time beating the crap out of your hand and more importantly beating the crap out of your weapon.
neither 9mm+p+ nor .45 acp +p beat the hell out of anything, hand or pistol. They are both completely managable.
Quote:
now lets talk about the idea behind different calibers that would actually be used by the military.
9mm is to put up a wall of lead for cover fire so you can get away or suppress your target. its not a bad round but its not great at the one shot stop.
Get one shot stops out of your head. No pistols work well at it, and even with rifles, if someone is worth shooting they're worth shooting multiple times. Sniping being the possible exception.
Quote:
.45 is a great round to simply drop a person.
No, it's not. They fail all the time. There is a huge myth surrounding the power of the .45 and it gets people hurt. No pistol caliber in the range we're talking about is good at simply dropping people unless you destroy the brain.
Quote:
the problem is that its a larger round and as such few are carried.
The size of the round is no problem at all, nor is the capacity of the pistols that chamber it.
Quote:
there arnt a lot of pistols that overcome this.
Because they don't need to.
Quote:
.40 is something of the middle ground between the .45 and 9mm. IMHO its the best of the bunch because it has a higher velocity then the .45, has more stopping power then the 9mm and you can carry lots of em.
40S&W is no more likely to stop a fight than either of the other calibers you mentioned if the round ain't in the right spot.
Quote:
the sharper of you will note Im not including the 5.7 round. this is because, while its an excellent round, its rather uncommon in the US and the US military really really like commonality
.
What makes it excellent? Nothing special about it. It's not like it provides rifle level performance out of handgun. It is a slave to the laws of physics, just like every other caliber on the planet.
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as for the pistols mentioned you can forget the glock.
But you shouldn't, it is an excellent service pistol for militaries and law enforcement around the world.
Quote:
Kimber is simply to expensive and despite the ill informed opinions above it happens to be an excellent firearm.
Some are, others not so much. The quality varies quite a bit. And you're wrong to call Johns624 ill informed, he's very experienced in the field, apparently more so than yourself.
Quote:
Spingfield is my choice. more specificly the XD(m) .40 simple to break down and clean, very accurate, very good round with lots of them (16) and much more durable then the glock.
OK, time to lay off the pipe. Springfield polymers, all polymers for that matter, are the attempts by other manufacturers to copy the succes Glock enjoyed when it pioneered the design. Glocks are among the simplest, most reliable, most durable pistols out there. I don't really know anyone in the field who seriously disagrees with that. Why do you?

Last edited by llkinak; 16 Feb 11 at 21:38..
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Old 16 Feb 11, 21:50
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IMO a pistol is a pistol. It seems like they are always trying to design something outside the level of what exactly a sidearm is. There seems to be way to much expectation regarding the capability of one, and further design of prospective models. If we are talking about a military, not law enforcement side-arm, then when SHTF, and you have come all the way down the necessity of drawing your pistol, I don't think there's much need for some high-capacity magazine, behemoth of technology. It's a pistol for god's sake. I don't see much problem with the reliable tried and true 1911 frame.
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