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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare by Other Means

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Warfare by Other Means Economics, demographics, cultural, technological, and other factors that have affected the course of history.

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  #31  
Old 23 Oct 11, 02:02
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Hmm, be interesting to know the title of that work. Personally, my first inkling of the concept - Cyberwar - was when I read Neuromancer which really has a lot of revolutionary cybernetic concepts (and lacking some modern touches as it ages). In any event, reality has to some extent moved past that. For instance, here's an article about nano-engineered attack vectors : extrapolations of stuff in the article are kind of nightmarish.
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  #32  
Old 23 Oct 11, 15:32
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I recall the title was "Mismatch", but a web search turned up nothing that fit. I'll have to dig through the shelves. Am moving my office/library yet again after a renovation project & letting the step daughter's family live in

The story was not of the Tom Clancy genre. character development & humor among the many difference. the story ended with the bad guy crashing a large part of the US telephone system, but the commies did not notice as the Politburo was locked up in a struggle over naming the minister of tractor production or something
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  #33  
Old 25 Oct 11, 15:26
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Going to make a distinction here. There is cyber war and cyber espionage. I'll list the state sponsored cyber attacks i'm aware of leaving out cyber espionage and cyber attacks by individuals and non nation-sanctioned attacks. well except to mention that one of the first true attacks was the morris worm.


first cyber attack used in anger i'm aware of was in first gulf war in 1991. The attack used a virus to disable radar systems. It was the first time that cyber attack was used in conjunction with kinetic attack.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/03...one_virus_one/


As mention before the Estonian cyber war was basically the first war fought completely in cyber space.


Late 2007 Israel used a cyber attack to hit Syria command and control system to "jam" syria's air defense radar.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,210486,00.html


Two more wars have been fought by Russia. The russian georgian war started with a cyber attack the disabled a large majority of Georgian communication channel before the kientic attack began. Allowing for the element of surprise. This was followed by a cyber war in Kyrgystan.

http://defensetech.org/2009/01/30/ru...cyber-warfare/


Before Stuxnet the aurora project should be mentioned. Its a proof of concept for cyber attack that have real world effects. Basically by overriding a few safeguard they were able to destroy an electric generator. Also comes with cool video.

http://unix.nocdesigns.com/aurora_white_paper.htm


Lastly Stuxnet.
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  #34  
Old 25 Oct 11, 16:36
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Originally Posted by tnbn75 View Post
As mention before the Estonian cyber war was basically the first war fought completely in cyber space.

...

Two more wars have been fought by Russia. The russian georgian war started with a cyber attack the disabled a large majority of Georgian communication channel before the kientic attack began. Allowing for the element of surprise. This was followed by a cyber war in Kyrgystan.

http://defensetech.org/2009/01/30/ru...cyber-warfare/
Gotta love the well-sourced article you've provided as a proof. I don't know much about Kyrgyzstan and Georgia - it looks weird that only civilian servers were knocked out for whatever purpose. This surely didn't and couldn't possibly prevent the spread of information around the world by the Western media which anyway expressed solely the point of view of the Georgian government, at least for the first 4-5 days. Even if the Russian government had done this, why didn't it try to tamper with Georgian military networks, which made much more sense? As far as I remember, there were no such attempts reported by either side.

As for Estonia, it's pretty simple - removing the Bronze Soldier for the Russians is kind of like Koran burning for the Muslims, albeit less dramatic. Some people organised actions to boycott Estonian goods and tourism from Russia dropped so heavily that St. Peterburg and Moscow got covered by big "Visit Estonia" posters as a part of Estonian PR campaign a couple of years later. If you think no civilian hackers ever cared to pay the Estonians back, you must have no understanding of Russian national sensitivities.
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  #35  
Old 25 Oct 11, 17:37
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Gotta love the well-sourced article you've provided as a proof. I don't know much about Kyrgyzstan and Georgia - it looks weird that only civilian servers were knocked out for whatever purpose. This surely didn't and couldn't possibly prevent the spread of information around the world by the Western media which anyway expressed solely the point of view of the Georgian government, at least for the first 4-5 days. Even if the Russian government had done this, why didn't it try to tamper with Georgian military networks, which made much more sense? As far as I remember, there were no such attempts reported by either side.

As for Estonia, it's pretty simple - removing the Bronze Soldier for the Russians is kind of like Koran burning for the Muslims, albeit less dramatic. Some people organised actions to boycott Estonian goods and tourism from Russia dropped so heavily that St. Peterburg and Moscow got covered by big "Visit Estonia" posters as a part of Estonian PR campaign a couple of years later. If you think no civilian hackers ever cared to pay the Estonians back, you must have no understanding of Russian national sensitivities.
Ah, do you really need to wage a cyberwar from fsb.ru servers? Come on. frankly, it's not particurlary hard to even organize the whole affair so that it really is a civilian effort. You only need effective propaganda and perhaps a few influencers here or there. Is cyber warfare only cw when it's done openly through government servers? Why would anyone want to do that?

PS. Spare us the "noone understands the great russian soul" talk.
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  #36  
Old 25 Oct 11, 17:53
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Ah, do you really need to wage a cyberwar from fsb.ru servers? Come on. frankly, it's not particurlary hard to even organize the whole affair so that it really is a civilian effort. You only need effective propaganda and perhaps a few influencers here or there. Is cyber warfare only cw when it's done openly through government servers? Why would anyone want to do that?
Did the fsb.ru servers show up during this attack? And why do you so staunchly deny any role of "hacktivists"? What you are saying is that when a Russian has a common point of view with his own government on certain issues, he's got to be its obedient, mindless, propaganda-brainwashed drone enlisted to the KGB cause. It's refreshing to see someone un-brainwashed as you are.

Quote:
PS. Spare us the "noone understands the great russian soul" talk.
You see the talk where it doesn't exist. What I meant what that if you do something to **** off someone, and you know very well it will **** him off, you shouldn't be surprised to get some payback. Surely, Estonia made lemonade out of its lemon, playing the still popular tune of being a "victim of evil Russia".
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  #37  
Old 25 Oct 11, 18:02
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Did the fsb.ru servers show up during this attack? And why do you so staunchly deny any role of "hacktivists"? What you are saying is that when a Russian has a common point of view with his own government on certain issues, he's got to be its obedient, mindless, propaganda-brainwashed drone enlisted to the KGB cause. It's refreshing to see someone un-brainwashed as you are.



You see the talk where it doesn't exist. What I meant what that if you do something to **** off someone, and you know very well it will **** him off, you shouldn't be surprised to get some payback. Surely, Estonia made lemonade out of its lemon, playing the still popular tune of being a "victim of evil Russia".
No, what I mean is, that to organize a cyber war, you don't have to do it via official means. You don't even need to send men in grey suits to the doorsteps of hackers. What you need is to create a media shitstorm, pull a few strings, post on a few forums, and the masses will do it for you, not even knowing how they were influenced. You do agree that one doesn't need to be brainwashed these days to be influenced by media and good infops?

And we certainly did that, in fact, as far as I've heard, we didn't even retaliate (although we could have) to prevent any PR problems.

Oh and russian government IP's did show up, although probably not fsb.ru
I'm also sure the russians had very good explanations (can't recall them atm) why those IP's showed up, it's not like we could check to see if those explenations were good or not anyway.

edit: Also, the fact that you are still talking about the removal of the Bronze soldier is a wonderful testament to the success of the russian "information campaign". The statue was re-located from behind a bus stop to a military cemetary for gods sake, and we had all that hoopla stirred up over it. Meanwhile, in your own country, you plowed open a similar monument (grave to the unknown soldier) to make room for a new office building (can't remember the town, was about a month after the estonian affair) with the bones lying about etc. IIRC someone even tried to bring it up in the duma.

Last edited by String; 25 Oct 11 at 18:08..
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  #38  
Old 25 Oct 11, 18:23
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I'm curious, who's leading the way in the 4th Dimension of Warfare? I heard that Russia is really embracing it.
I'd not leave the US out of this. It may be we are better at covering our tracks than others....

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Originally Posted by tnbn75 View Post
.....

first cyber attack used in anger i'm aware of was in first gulf war in 1991. The attack used a virus to disable radar systems. It was the first time that cyber attack was used in conjunction with kinetic attack.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/03...one_virus_one/
Ok, I'll buy 'first known'. Eventually as the old crocks talk and the secret documents are made public we are likely to learn there were earlier attempts or sucesses in the 1980s or even earlier.
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  #39  
Old 25 Oct 11, 18:25
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I'd liked to have made a cyber attack on that idiot driver on the cell phone this morning

Anyone have any ideas there?
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  #40  
Old 25 Oct 11, 18:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by String View Post
No, what I mean is, that to organize a cyber war, you don't have to do it via official means. You don't even need to send men in grey suits to the doorsteps of hackers. What you need is to create a media shitstorm, pull a few strings, post on a few forums, and the masses will do it for you, not even knowing how they were influenced. You do agree that one doesn't need to be brainwashed these days to be influenced by media and good infops?
Don't you think that in order that people would follow some idea, it's got to affect them in some way, eh? It's not like a lot of Russians would be insulted by the Estonians abusing a random Russian cat or saying "Putin is a moron"? Come on, the Estonians knew what they were doing, and considering the status of ethnic Russians in your state, you could see something like this sh*tstorm coming.

So now you're finally conceding these were private individuals who started this cyberattack? Very good. Of course, all Russians are brainwashed drones easily swallowing KGB baits as opposed to the enlightened Estonians who can't get their message of truth across cause the Russians are too dumb and don't use Internet to read about the Estonian point of view

Quote:
And we certainly did that, in fact, as far as I've heard, we didn't even retaliate (although we could have) to prevent any PR problems.
It's like Estonia could have any good PR in Russia. Poor guys, so torn apart between getting Russian money from tourism/real estate sales/transit business and spitting Russians in the face I don't know how much they spent on "Visit Estonia" posters, but it's got to be a freaking lot considering the placement prices. That's so much like that old joke about an Estonian taxi driver refusing to speak Russian out of principle, but starting a Cossack dance once he gets a 100 dollar bill.

Quote:
Oh and russian government IP's did show up, although probably not fsb.ru
As for the government servers - do you know how many computers of clueless government clerks around the world actually work for the mafia to rob banks, for special services and "just for lulz", being linked together in botnets?

Quote:
I'm also sure the russians had very good explanations (can't recall them atm) why those IP's showed up, it's not like we could check to see if those explenations were good or not anyway.
I see, you were too excited with getting the spotlight of being the Bear's Victim once again. It's like hunters' stories - who cares about proof when the story's so good!
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  #41  
Old 25 Oct 11, 18:56
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I suppose that one could assume the georgian military has dug up the entire country and put its own wan links in the ground and manages them as well. But that assumption would probably be wrong for almost every country. Most telecom companies were orginally set up as government agencies or with government sponsorship mainly because no business would invest in such a large undertaking as putting WAN links across a country with out someone else footing the bill. militaries tend to leverage the same government sponsored telecoms to provision there networks. which would make sense that all militaries are auditting the key military networks to ensure "air gap" or that they are not connected in anyway to the internet.

In the case of Georgia the entire government network was built by magticom the largest telecom. combine that with little bit of knowlegde on the perimeter map of Georgia's internet network, the fact people are really lazy and probably did a bad job or architecting security around the govt network, and a well placed DDOS attack and there is high probability that you may have isolated the entire countries in/out traffic or disrupt key internal traffic pipes. So in terms of military usage if you can disrupt key lines of communication especially from command and control, it's essentailly a cyber blitzkrieg.

Mind you if you understand how the internet works you know that it is far easier to disrupt communication than it is to steal information.

you can make the argument, and people have, that the cyber attacks were performed by individuals and not state sponsored. which is a valid argument. although the timing of the attacks would suggest that the hackers either knew that Georgia would be attacked or that the hackers just happened to conduct a large scale cyber attack against the countries key communications infrastructure conveniently just ahead of an kinetic attack.
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Old 25 Oct 11, 20:20
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I'd liked to have made a cyber attack on that idiot driver on the cell phone this morning

Anyone have any ideas there?
Well you'd need an RF signal generator, an amplifier, an antenna, a power supply and probably need to have some idea what general type of phone he is using so you can hit the correct frequency band. Expect at least some collateral damage to other electronic devices in the vicinity. It will be hard to aim while driving so I recommend you take an Electronic Warfare Officer along to operate the system.
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Old 25 Oct 11, 20:41
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Sounds good. Must be some sort of way to focus the signal to reduce unwanted damage. Although frying the offenders automobile ignition would not be unwelcome. Probablly need a fairly hefty capacitor to send a damaging strength signal. The passenger doing the electronic warfare could use a frequency scanner to identify the appropriate band width.

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Old 25 Oct 11, 20:41
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Well you'd need an RF signal generator, an amplifier, an antenna, a power supply and probably need to have some idea what general type of phone he is using so you can hit the correct frequency band. Expect at least some collateral damage to other electronic devices in the vicinity. It will be hard to aim while driving so I recommend you take an Electronic Warfare Officer along to operate the system.
or this

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/want...k-phone-calls/

or a cell phone jammer. although its 11 grand ticket for using a cell phone jammer.
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Old 25 Oct 11, 22:13
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