HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > History Library > Orders of Battle

Notices and Announcements

Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 31 Oct 10, 11:51
Gary Kennedy's Avatar
Gary Kennedy Gary Kennedy is offline
Corporal
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 68
Gary Kennedy is on the path to success [1-99]
Armd Inf in 2d and 3d Armd Divs, 1944-45

Just wondering whether anyone on the other side of the Atlantic might be able to help regarding an old query of mine regarding US unit organisation in WW2.

When the US Army adopted the new 'Light' structure for its Armd Divs in September 1943, the 1st, 2d and 3d Armd Divs were either already overseas or departing shortly. 1st Armd changed to the Light org during 1944 in Italy, but 2d and 3d both remained on the 'Heavy' (or old) organisation right through their stints in the ETO.

Now I have the Tables of Organization books by JJ Hays on the US Armored Divisions, and photocopies of a number of original T/Os. I was never certain whether the 2d and 3d adopted the new T/Os issued in Sep43, or simply stayed on those issued back in Mar/Apr42. I've found enough bits and bobs of info to convince me that the Armd Rcn Bn, the Armd Eng bn and the Armd Arty all did, and the Armd Regts mostly did (some things that still nag at me there, but that's another post...).

I'm down now to the Armd Inf Bns and their Rifle Cos. Problem I have here is that the original version of the Armd Rifle Co was noticeably smaller than the one adopted in Sep43, and required the Rifle Pls to man their own anti-tank guns, one being towed by each HQ vehicle. Firepower wise there wasn't much difference, but personnel saw the old Coy on 178 and the new on 251, including a dedicated Anti-tank Pl of three guns. I appreciate that these numbers were the paper ones and in combat they were routinely understrength, but there's an obvious difference.

I found this nugget on the net recently, which indicates the Coy was still operating about the 180 mark -

http://www.3ad.org/testimonials/wwii...air_pacios.htm

He describes the Rifle Pls as being smaller still than the book strength of 49 all ranks, and doesn't mention the 57-mm anti-tank guns being involved in this action. I know some US Armd Inf units turned their Anti-tank Pl into a fourth Rifle Pl due to an overall shortage of infantrymen in the Armd Divs, but 36th and 41st Armd Inf Regts weren't even allocated full time anti-tank gunners from what I can see.

So I was wondering if anyone might have any information on the way the 36th and 41st handled the 57-mm towed anti-tank guns, or even discarded them, or has any accounts similar to the above link that might cast some light on their Rifle Co organisation.

Thanks,

Gary
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 01 Nov 10, 20:46
The Purist's Avatar
The Purist The Purist is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
England
March Offensive 5 Year Service Ribbon Distinguished Service Award Summer Campaign 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gerry Proudfoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In my castle by the sea.
Posts: 10,790
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
So far as I have been able to ascertain the 1944 armoured infantry platoon had:

1 x M3a1 ht w/ rifle sqd, & Baz
2 x M3 ht with a rifle squad ea.
1 x M3 ht w/ 60mm mortar team
1 M3 (MMG) with MG squad
1 M2 or M3 ht w/ 57mm ATG & crew.

A company had three such platoons.

A Battalion had three companies plus:

1 MG platoon of 3 x M3 (HMG) w/ three MG squads
1 mortar platoon of 3 x M4a1 or M21 MC ht (3 x 81 mm mortars)
1 SPG platoon of 3 x M8 Scout HMC

On paper at least,... most probably had more kit.

Quite a lot of firepower.
__________________
The Purist

Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04 Nov 10, 13:17
The Land's Avatar
The Land The Land is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,275
The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100] The Land has demonstrated strength of character [100]
I understand that Bazookas were in good supply - certainly more than one per platoon...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10 Nov 10, 07:22
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 11,866
T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100]
T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100] T. A. Gardner is a pillar of the community [1100]
On the antitank guns / platoons. In the field most of the armored infantry battalions ditched the guns and used the crew as infantry replacements. This was done because the battalion commanders realistically saw that they could count on having plenty of antiarmor support from the division tanks or attached tank destroyers and that the 57mm was not worth the effort to keep in action.
So, while these guns existed on paper in reality they often were not present in the battalion.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:55.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.