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North America Important Events in Canada and the United States. .

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  #16  
Old 15 Aug 17, 18:09
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I'm a bit torn on the issue, one which has the potential to go out of control. I understand the sentiment behind removing the symbols if the confederacy. My worry is in the larger context of everyone being offended by something. When all if the confederate symbols are removed, what will be next??

It may sound absurd now, but in 20 years could people demand that the Statue of Liberty be removed?
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  #17  
Old 15 Aug 17, 18:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Then it can just as easily be argued that the motive behind the erection of those monuments -- especially those established in the 1890s-1900s -- was the promotion of violence, of the Lost Cause, Jim Crow, the Klan, et al. If I'm right, then isn't it high time that any kind of commemoration of those policies be brought to a close?
So the relatives of the Confederate dead (widows, orphans, and other family members) who supported these monuments did so to promote violence (Klan, Jim Crow, etc)?...and not in memory of the fathers, sons and brothers they lost in the war?

Really?
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  #18  
Old 15 Aug 17, 19:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asterix View Post
I'm a bit torn on the issue, one which has the potential to go out of control. I understand the sentiment behind removing the symbols if the confederacy. My worry is in the larger context of everyone being offended by something. When all if the confederate symbols are removed, what will be next??

It may sound absurd now, but in 20 years could people demand that the Statue of Liberty be removed?
Good point. How long until someone demands the removal of statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? After all, they were slave owners, and therefore forever tainted. Sounds absurd? There was a time that someone who proposed removing a statue of Robert E. Lee would've been thought absurd.
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  #19  
Old 16 Aug 17, 01:59
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Wada we want? A Conderate Monuments Museum! when do we want it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil74501 View Post
Good point. How long until someone demands the removal of statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? After all, they were slave owners, and therefore forever tainted. Sounds absurd? There was a time that someone who proposed removing a statue of Robert E. Lee would've been thought absurd.
Well the confederate monuments divide people and cause emotions to run very hot. Washington and Jefferson aren't really controversial except in some boutique historical debate circles.

The argument that Washington and Jefferson were slave owners and therefore should be or one day could be, regarded in the same light as confederate figures would not get enough traction and would simply alienate to many mainstream Americans.
They may have had 'a dark side' to their ledger but they weren't fighting to maintain slavery as an integral part of their way of life.
Men of their time you might say.

I just heard on the Aussie wireless ('radio' aa I believe they call it in the US?) news that another statute has been torn down!
Like I said this is getting silly and a compromise of putting them in a new museum (the Confederate Statue Archives (CSA ) maybe, or existing museums with explanatory panels and forums for robust debate should be adopted.

And be quick about it. I don't do patience.
Wadda we want?
A Confederate Monuments Museum!

When do we want it?

As soon as a site, building, funding and security measures can be agreed on!

In Tasmania they have a saying:
‘The reason most people take an instant dislike to lodestar is that it saves time!’

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  #20  
Old 16 Aug 17, 02:58
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Meh its more of the political correctness that plagues the west.

It's all about some snowflakes being upset yet even more.
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  #21  
Old 16 Aug 17, 03:14
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I'm worried about WWIII and they think a statue is a problem? If you take all the issues that are worth worrying about and prioritize them this ends up low on the list.

If groups like BLM take money from Soros and don't see how minorities are going to be crushed by the chaos that banksters like him are setting in motion how can you respect them? Who profits and who suffers from chaos is a sliding scale but it doesn't take a genius to figure out minorities are near the bottom.
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  #22  
Old 16 Aug 17, 03:39
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Where will these activists go once they get some monuments torn down? The Nazis used Bully Boy tactics and rode them to power. If you don't stand up to them they will not stop. I remember a line from the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales". Captain Redlegs Terril is talking to Fletcher. He wants to hunt Renegades in Texas. Fletcher says once they get Wales that is the end of it. Captain Terril comes back with "Doing Right has no end!". What do they do next, run for office?

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  #23  
Old 16 Aug 17, 08:00
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I dont feel any worse for a CSA statue being taken down when compared to a Third Reich or ISIL statue taken down...if Germans are all expected to be critical of the Third Reich part of its history and all Muslims critical of ISIL perhaps all white Americans should be against the CSA. We simply dont have any monuments to black and Jewish slave holders in the USA, that is something perhaps that some are missing. The false comparisons between Anti Fascists, blm, Communists and the Third Reich supporters is not even something that would have been said during the commie witch hunt days. I also truly hope any non white American out there whom has sold out to try fit in with racist whites will stop the comparisons between Communists and Third Reich supporters and will embrace equal views as did great men such as MLK Jr.

It must have been a sight during the US civil war to see a black Union solider come across a slave plantation in the south during the war...its in the same category as a Jewish USSR solider coming across a concentration camp in Germany. Again I can understand some white Americans being hesitant about seeing CSA statues taken down, but truly try and think of what a black teenager reading the history books thinks when he reads about so called race based slavery in the US and how the CSA fought to uphold race baced slavery and a system that got away from all the great European Catholic based Kingdoms which preached honorable values.

Wolf Blitzer whom lost all his grandparents in the Holocaust brought up a good point talking about how the POTUS needs to take a leadership role and unequivocally condemn neo nazis and CSA supporters..and perhaps one way to do so is to argue to take down the CSA Monuments and replace them with monuments to Abraham Lincoln, John Brown or some sort of American that all Americans can look up to.
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  #24  
Old 16 Aug 17, 15:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodestar View Post
Well the confederate monuments divide people and cause emotions to run very hot. Washington and Jefferson aren't really controversial except in some boutique historical debate circles.

The argument that Washington and Jefferson were slave owners and therefore should be or one day could be, regarded in the same light as confederate figures would not get enough traction and would simply alienate to many mainstream Americans.
They may have had 'a dark side' to their ledger but they weren't fighting to maintain slavery as an integral part of their way of life.
Men of their time you might say.

I just heard on the Aussie wireless ('radio' aa I believe they call it in the US?) news that another statute has been torn down!
Like I said this is getting silly and a compromise of putting them in a new museum (the Confederate Statue Archives (CSA ) maybe, or existing museums with explanatory panels and forums for robust debate should be adopted.

And be quick about it. I don't do patience.
Wadda we want?
A Confederate Monuments Museum!

When do we want it?

As soon as a site, building, funding and security measures can be agreed on!

In Tasmania they have a saying:
‘The reason most people take an instant dislike to lodestar is that it saves time!’

Regards
lodestar
20 years ago, or 50 years ago, removing a statue of Robert E. Lee would've been though absurd, but yet here we are. How can you say what will be considered sensible 50, or 100, years from now that today we would consider absurd. Once they've gotten these statues removed, they'll be back for more, and then more, and then more..... They are professional protestors/grievance mongers. As I said, it's all they have to do with their lives.
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  #25  
Old 16 Aug 17, 20:42
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More Statues come down

Hurry good people hurry!
More statutes have come down!
Under cover of darkness no less!

Rumor has it they're going to be replaced by statues of Jesse Jackson!!!

Seriously though, can you see my point?
BEFORE it's too late, try and get them into a museum(s) where they MAYBE can be used constructively and some of this hysteria channeled into as I keep saying 'robust debate'.

Heck I'll even be happy to open the CSA (Confederate Statues Archive) myself if it'll help!

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  #26  
Old 16 Aug 17, 20:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodestar View Post
Is it time to simply move remaining confederate monuments into an existing or new museum?

Err look this is getting ridiculous.
Yes, I’m not an American and of course I can be told (and I’m sure I will be!) that it’s none of my business.
However surely it’s time that the steps begin to be taken to quietly and quickly move statues of confederate figures that are on open-air display into a museum or museums?
There are existing Confederacy / ACW-themed museums are there not.

The controversy surrounding them can also by extension, also move to the museum where both sides of the argument can be presented in attendant explanatory panels, interactive displays.
Don’t laugh. It could work and the whole atmosphere of hysteria be calmed down if it’s done properly.

Debate (even venting if need be) in a calmer, rational (and yes one can ‘vent’ rationally - not all rants are delusional) and I’m sure robust fashion in a proper atmospheric.
You can have school history discussion groups, community organisation tours, televised presentations by assorted ‘experts’ etc., etc..

The way things are they’re now just a symbol of division and target of combativeness which both sides can focus on, with as can been seen, often violent consequences.

Now don’t get me wrong I don’t have the remotest time or support for the ‘lost cause’ and the ridiculous smokescreen about the ACW being about ’States Rights’.
The Confederacy and the slavery system which underpinned it was a loathsome institution and the finest thing the US armed services ever did on their own (as opposed to helping the allies defeat Nazism) was to destroy the Confederacy and what it represented.
The continued existence of such an entity on the North American continent does not bear thinking about.

However, I do not agree with the destruction of historical monuments, even of figures of controversy and divisiveness. It’s a reflex action with undertones of destruction of religious monuments by extremist in other parts of the world.
Anyway be interested in your input

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  #27  
Old 17 Aug 17, 07:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodestar View Post
Hurry good people hurry!
More statutes have come down!
Under cover of darkness no less!

Rumor has it they're going to be replaced by statues of Jesse Jackson!!!

Seriously though, can you see my point?
BEFORE it's too late, try and get them into a museum(s) where they MAYBE can be used constructively and some of this hysteria channeled into as I keep saying 'robust debate'.

Heck I'll even be happy to open the CSA (Confederate Statues Archive) myself if it'll help!

Regards
lodestar
Except, it won't stop with statues.

Already, there are calls to remove Washington and Jefferson statues, change names of streets and other landmarks, blow up the Stone Mountain Monument, even change the names of naval vessels. Until the Republican Congressmen and Senators get a backbone, this Soros sponsored Taliban behavior to erase history will continue until another Civil War erupts nationwide.

Quote:
George Soros is an international multi-billionaire who uses his money to gain influence, in turn using that influence to make radical changes in the fabric of American society - to the extent of subverting the American political system and force his dangerous interests into American legislatures - sometimes by directly bribing American politicians. Soros spends millions on perpetuating mindless violence in the United States, for example George Soros provided funding to some groups that engaged in Ferguson-related riots.
https://www.change.org/p/united-stat...-cartel-groups

http://silentcircle.co.uk/list-georg...ttack-america/
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  #28  
Old 18 Aug 17, 08:46
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More on statues

Interestingly, descendants of Lee, Jackson and Davis have publically stated (and told me in private, not realizing I can't be trusted as far as I can be kicked) that they have no object to, or in fact, support the removal of the statues and the placing of them in a museum(s).

In short these worthy folks are in agreement with lodestar and ergo must be pretty sharp dudes and dudresses (if any of them are females!)

Seriously, someone needs to start the push for this properly and quickly.
Any suggestions for a site for the CSA (Confederate Statues Archive)?
An ACW battlefield?:
May have to be one symbolizing mutual sacrifice and tragedy rather than an decisive victory or symbolic triumph for one side or the other or maybe a battle that was just a draw.
. Antietam? (the bloodiest day)
. Eltham's Landing? (draw)
. Flair Garden? (draw)
. Rowlett's Station? (draw)

A unity site?:
. Next to the Center for Civil and Human Rights (civil Right Museum) in Atlanta? (relax people, done properly it would work and anything's better than what's happening now)

A reverse-psychology divisive site(ie one that looks like it could represent one thing but actually ends up representing something quite different)?:

. Pulaski, Tennessee?
. Chapel Hill, Tennessee?

Tasmania?
. Wadda mean WHY?? Coz it's my idea for Pete's Sake!


Get the idea?
Thinking hats on people, I need to go to bed soon.


Ps: Speaking of the ACW here's a great joke:

Saloon near Appomattox Courthouse Mid April 1865.
Confederate General's horse wanders in.
Barkeep looks up and says " Hey why the long face?"

Here all week folks!
Don't forget to tip the waitresses.

Regards
lodestar
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