HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > North America

Notices and Announcements

North America Important Events in Canada and the United States. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 19 Jun 17, 20:55
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 37,534
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
thanks for reply
interesting information...good reading
great point on if the team can respond well or not...
now that you mention the saltwater--didn't the Bismarck have salt water in the fuel oil problem from damage in the battle with the Hood??
I was on watch at about 0230 on the Enterprise in the Straights of Molucca off Malaysia when we lost the forward group (half the engines / plant) we had 22 planes up and the Captain was worried they'd have to divert if we couldn't get the flight deck and arresting gear back up.

As Load Dispatcher, I was on watch with LCDR Baugh who was a good EOOW. All he told / ordered me to do was "get the electrical plant back up like it was before" and left it to me to do. Less than 30 minutes later we had all four emergency diesels up, power back to everything and the planes landed.

I was later told the Captain gave the watch team an "Atta boy" for our quick response. We were also told that the Saratoga (this was 1984) had a similar problem like six months earlier and their planes had to divert. We all thought at the time "Nuke v. Conventional = Nuke's know their stuff, the Conventional's are knuckle draggers."
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 20 Jun 17, 07:44
Bass_Man86's Avatar
Bass_Man86 Bass_Man86 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Out of here!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Out of here!
Posts: 8,467
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
At 10,000 yds? Plenty. IIRC 5 knots (nautical miles per hour) is about 10,000 yards per hour. So 35 knots would give about 1/7 h.

If both follow the rules then they both ought to turn enough starboard (right) so that the passing ship will leave on port (left) side. Like right side traffic.
As an addendum, from CNN:

Quote:
Timing will play a critical role in determining exactly how the collision happened, particularly as the shipping data from Marinetraffic.com appears to indicate that the ACX Crystal made a sharp right turn at close to 1:30 am -- the time that the Japanese coast guard said the crash occurred.
If this information is accurate then it appears that the ships were in a starboard to starboard passage situation with both vessels heading on reciprocal courses. While port to port passages are preferred in situations in which both ships are on reciprocal courses, starboard to starboard is not unusual. Nonetheless, I still find it hard to believe that the USS Fitzgerald was unable to avoid the collision; I served, worked on and worked with Burke class destroyers and I can personally vouch for the agility of those ships. We shall see what the results of the investigation are.
__________________
Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

Initiated Chief Petty Officer
Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 20 Jun 17, 10:05
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,543
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
If this information is accurate then it appears that the ships were in a starboard to starboard passage situation with both vessels heading on reciprocal courses. While port to port passages are preferred in situations in which both ships are on reciprocal courses, starboard to starboard is not unusual. Nonetheless, I still find it hard to believe that the USS Fitzgerald was unable to avoid the collision; I served, worked on and worked with Burke class destroyers and I can personally vouch for the agility of those ships. We shall see what the results of the investigation are.

With the revised collision time the AIS plot gets quite a bit more believable. And incidentally quite a bit more ugly for the USS Fitzgerald. Merchant does not maneuver erratically, tries to evade by turning starboard (aka right), collides, slows down and returns to the site to help in rescue. From the appearances that is.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 20 Jun 17, 10:23
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 12,237
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
With the revised collision time the AIS plot gets quite a bit more believable. And incidentally quite a bit more ugly for the USS Fitzgerald. Merchant does not maneuver erratically, tries to evade by turning starboard (aka right), collides, slows down and returns to the site to help in rescue. From the appearances that is.
That makes it look like the merchant intentionally rammed the Fitzgerald.

If the ships are passing on the starboard side, any avoidance correction to the course would not be starboard.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 20 Jun 17, 11:05
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,363
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
That makes it look like the merchant intentionally rammed the Fitzgerald.

If the ships are passing on the starboard side, any avoidance correction to the course would not be starboard.
..if intentional, extremely poor seamanship by the Fitz--unless a fake ''distress'' signal from the ACX--chances very low for that

...I see no elongated scraping topside damage to the Fitz--damage appears slightly leaning aft
according to Vaeltaja, they have slightly parallel courses with the Fitz overtaking the ACX, correct?
from the damage, I would say this more likely

however--as we see in the Tenerife air disaster--2 747s are on the same runway--- going head to head towards each other!! with humans, anything is possible

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/co...port-disaster/
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 20 Jun 17, 11:08
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,543
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
That makes it look like the merchant intentionally rammed the Fitzgerald.

If the ships are passing on the starboard side, any avoidance correction to the course would not be starboard.
Lets start with these: Colregs

Now you are assuming a head on meeting. That is something we do not yet know. Besides the rules above make allowance to resort to 'head-on' rules when in doubt. Limited visibility rules even make it clear that course corrections to port in such a situation are not exactly something that are recommended. It seems it would have been quite difficult for the collision/damage to occur like it did unless the Fitzgerald turned to port. Besides in any case the collision damage on the merchant on the left (port) side of the bow (nose, front) seems to be indicating that the merchant's port side (left) was facing destroyer's starboard (right) side - and at far less than perpendicular angle. Which to my understanding indicates a situation in which case the Fitzgerald was the one supposed to keep clear to the merchant regardless.

But then again I'm only familiar with sailing in waters like this.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 20 Jun 17, 11:21
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 37,534
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
That makes it look like the merchant intentionally rammed the Fitzgerald.

If the ships are passing on the starboard side, any avoidance correction to the course would not be starboard.
But, by rules of the road, the ship to starboard has the right of way (ACX) and the Fitzgerald has the duty to sheer off to port to avoid the oncoming ship.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:15
Bass_Man86's Avatar
Bass_Man86 Bass_Man86 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Out of here!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Out of here!
Posts: 8,467
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post

With the revised collision time the AIS plot gets quite a bit more believable. And incidentally quite a bit more ugly for the USS Fitzgerald. Merchant does not maneuver erratically, tries to evade by turning starboard (aka right), collides, slows down and returns to the site to help in rescue. From the appearances that is.
It is possible, and as the Fitzgerald was struck on her starboard side I am inclined to agree with. Nonetheless, I will point out that we do not know all the facts yet.

Quote:
One defense expert suggested that the collision occurred simply because nobody on the Crystal was there to see it happen.

'I suspect, from the data, that the ACX Crystal was running on autopilot the whole time, and nobody was on the bridge,' Steffan Watkins, an IT security consultant and ship tracking analyst for Janes Intelligence Review, told DailyMail.com yesterday.

'If anyone was on the bridge, they had no idea how to turn off the autopilot.'

According to the tracking data, 15 minutes after the presumed 1.30am collision with the Fitzgerald, the ship righted its course and increased speed, readjusting for the change in course the collision had made.

'This is, to me, proof that a computer was driving,' Watkins said. 'No captain shakes off a collision with a US Navy Destroyer and resumes course so perfectly.'

Questions also remain about why - as shown in multiple GPS trackers - the cargo ship sailed on for seven miles and thirty minutes before turning around to help the stricken Navy vessel.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rald-sank.html

I find the allegation that the ACX Crystal was on autopilot believable. I have been working on and with ships virtually my entire life. I know from conversations with contract mariners that ships like the ACX Crystal use autopilot extensively. I will also point out that in the linked article the author opined that on a ship as large as the ACX Crystal they not even have felt the collision.

Nonetheless, I am still curious as to what may have been happening the Fitzgerald's CIC. A ship as large as the ACX Crystal is a significant radar target. The ship's bridge is equipped with ARPA and has a commercial grade radar for the navigation team. I cannot believe that the ACX Crystal was not tracked on radar. Unlike commercial vessels, U.S. Navy ship have personnel on watch 24/7; what were these people doing?
__________________
Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

Initiated Chief Petty Officer
Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:19
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 12,237
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Lets start with these: Colregs
Lets start with the concept of a thread.....

Bass Mann posted what it appeared to be from a news source.

You quoted and replied to Bass Mann's post.

I quoted and replied to your post......in other words...a thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Now you are assuming a head on meeting. That is something we do not yet know.
Not assuming, I was replying to a thread that talked about what appears to have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Besides the rules above make allowance to resort to 'head-on' rules when in doubt. Limited visibility rules even make it clear that course corrections to port in such a situation are not exactly something that are recommended.
It appears that you didn't pick up on what Bass Mann said, even though you quoted him. For clarification, here is what you quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
If this information is accurate then it appears that the ships were in a starboard to starboard passage situation with both vessels heading on reciprocal courses. While port to port passages are preferred in situations in which both ships are on reciprocal courses, starboard to starboard is not unusual. Nonetheless, I still find it hard to believe that the USS Fitzgerald was unable to avoid the collision; I served, worked on and worked with Burke class destroyers and I can personally vouch for the agility of those ships. We shall see what the results of the investigation are.
I highlighted what I was focusing on. Appears is critical, again, I wasn't assuming just replying. In the above situation; starboard to starboard a course correction to port is the only option that would get you out of the path of an oncoming vessel. A correction to starboard would cause you to either cross it's bow or it's wake.....which is not recommended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
It seems it would have been quite difficult for the collision/damage to occur like it did unless the Fitzgerald turned to port.
This is probably a case where it would be easier to understand if we had two ship models and simulated the course. I think there would be more of a 'scraping' type damage to the Fitzgerald if she were turning to port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Besides in any case the collision damage on the merchant on the left (port) side of the bow (nose, front) seems to be indicating that the merchant's port side (left) was facing destroyer's starboard (right) side - and at far less than perpendicular angle. Which to my understanding indicates a situation in which case the Fitzgerald was
the one supposed to keep clear to the merchant regardless.
I think that type of damage indicates what I posted about the merchant ship turning to starboard, towards the Fitzgerald. If the merchant's course correction was to starboard possibly the merchant saw to collision about to happen and continued over correcting to avoid hitting the Fitzgerald. That would explain the bow/port damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
But then again I'm only familiar with sailing in waters like this.
Nice chart.

I never had to navigate north of the arctic circle...I was only a passenger for those transits.

I did get the opportunity to assist in open water navigation in both the Pacific & Indian Oceans. The Straits of Malacca and pulling into Singapore while deployed with the USS Ogden. I was the Chief Navigator in our Small Boat Company, I graduated from the Maritime Navigation Course at EWTGPAC Coronado. The Ogden's CO allowed me to assist the Navigator in order to sustain up my skills.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:22
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 12,237
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
But, by rules of the road, the ship to starboard has the right of way (ACX) and the Fitzgerald has the duty to sheer off to port to avoid the oncoming ship.
TAG, I'm tracking....it doesn't matter who or what caused it...there was a lot of blue water navigation space for the Fitzgerald to maneuver in order to avoid the collision.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #71  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:23
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,363
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
here's a link with the speed and direction changes with graph and maps of the ACX
very telling
she slows down considerably, especially for a big ship

http://www.vesselofinterest.com/2017...-with-uss.html
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:29
Bass_Man86's Avatar
Bass_Man86 Bass_Man86 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Out of here!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Out of here!
Posts: 8,467
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
I did get the opportunity to assist in open water navigation in both the Pacific & Indian Oceans. The Straits of Malacca and pulling into Singapore while deployed with the USS Ogden. I was the Chief Navigator in our Small Boat Company, I graduated from the Maritime Navigation Course at EWTGPAC Coronado. The Ogden's CO allowed me to assist the Navigator in order to sustain up my skills.
I spent most of my Navy career assigned to ships homeported in Yokosuka, Japan. I can safely say that I spent a good deal of time sailing in those waters. I do not know what the maritime traffic is like these days but I do not recall it being overwhelming. I will also add that if the ACX Crystal did indeed turn to starboard in a starboard to starboard passage situation, then it is quite possible that the master of the Crystal in at least partially culpable for the collision.
__________________
Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

Initiated Chief Petty Officer
Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:30
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 12,237
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Nonetheless, I am still curious as to what may have been happening the Fitzgerald's CIC. A ship as large as the ACX Crystal is a significant radar target. The ship's bridge is equipped with ARPA and has a commercial grade radar for the navigation team. I cannot believe that the ACX Crystal was not tracked on radar. Unlike commercial vessels, U.S. Navy ship have personnel on watch 24/7; what were these people doing?
Chief, I think you already answered this...a couple times regarding the rapid promotions.

I'm guessing that the sailors on watch weren't believing/comprehending what the sensors were telling them.

The USS Vincennes had this type of problem in 1988 when it shot down the Iranian airliner. The radar was showing the aircraft gaining altitude yet the sailors swore it showed the airline dropping altitude in what they thought was an attack posture.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:38
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 12,237
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
I spent most of my Navy career assigned to ships homeported in Yokosuka, Japan. I can safely say that I spent a good deal of time sailing in those waters. I do not know what the maritime traffic is like these days but I do not recall it being overwhelming. I will also add that if the ACX Crystal did indeed turn to starboard in a starboard to starboard passage situation, then it is quite possible that the master of the Crystal in at least partially culpable for the collision.
Chief, if it is true regarding the starboard/starboard passage...the crystal is partially responsible but you and I both know ultimately the responsibility is on the Captain of the Fitzgerald. Navigating in confined brown water....maybe the board would take this into consideration. In open blue water.....even if the merchant was trying to play Amagiri games....there is no excuse for the collision.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 20 Jun 17, 12:40
Marmat's Avatar
Marmat Marmat is offline
Major General
Canada
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Denis
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Marmora, where else?
Posts: 2,708
Marmat gives and gets respect [800]
Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800] Marmat gives and gets respect [800]
Off the wall question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Chief, I think you already answered this...a couple times regarding the rapid promotions.

I'm guessing that the sailors on watch weren't believing/comprehending what the sensors were telling them.

The USS Vincennes had this type of problem in 1988 when it shot down the Iranian airliner. The radar was showing the aircraft gaining altitude yet the sailors swore it showed the airline dropping altitude in what they thought was an attack posture.
..., given the Vincennes shoot-down; if Fitzie's bridge watch was alert and on-the-ball, a) could they have been given support after-the-fact in concluding that they were observing an attempt to ram their ship and b) would a shot across the bows then manoeuvring out of the way have been in order?
__________________
"I am Groot"
- Groot
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:55.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.