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  #31  
Old 18 Jun 17, 12:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Well Arleigh Burke is about the size of a WW II era (heavy) cruiser so it is not exactly a fair comparison.
While a WW2 Heavy Cruiser had several inches of armor plating protecting the vitals, this ship, like the WW2 Destroyers, has none. They are built for speed.

Some of the photos I have seen show the deck curve is bent at the impact area indicating that the main hill was buckled by the broadside impact. The ship was hit both topside by the bow and underwater by the bulbous bow.
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  #32  
Old 18 Jun 17, 13:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
No, the idiots were on the US ship.

It seems to me that the merchant very likely had steering problems. The idiot is the American captain or the bridge watch members for not keeping clear as they ought to, read up the Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, is just a few lines of common sense.


There's no excuse for this. Not with radar and night vision devices. No one was paying attention and whatever the cargo ship was doing, the
destroyer is much faster and maneuverable, and should never have gotten so near.
If the cargo ship failed to display breakdown lights (night) or day shapes indicating the same, then the fault lies with the cargo ship.

If the cargo ship or destroyer failed to try to contact the other vessel as they closed, then it's that ship's fault potentially.

The cargo ship, if it was having steering problems and failed to warn off other vessels by radio or signal, and it collided with another ship while approaching from astern and starboard of the ship it hit (as is the case here) rules of the road favor the destroyer in this case.

If the destroyer was crossing the merchant ship's course, then the fault would lie with the destroyer. The same goes if the destroyer didn't stay clear knowing the merchant was broken down or unable to steer by radio contact or sighting of the proper lights or visual signal aloft.



The merchant, if having steering problems, should have indicated by lights and day shapes (ball and diamond black shapes hoisted as a signal) either "not under command" or "restricted ability to maneuver."
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  #33  
Old 18 Jun 17, 14:49
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We need to know more to reach a decision
I'm sure the CNO is waiting on the edge of his chair for your decision Admiral John....
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  #34  
Old 18 Jun 17, 15:05
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You can bet that the insurance company is...
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  #35  
Old 19 Jun 17, 09:29
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Angry INT WTF

Regardless of who is 'at fault' in this case the blame must be borne by whomever was on watch on the Fitzgerald at the time. US NAVY ships that are underway are mandated to be in 'situational awareness' at all times.
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  #36  
Old 19 Jun 17, 09:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose50 View Post
(...) US NAVY ships that are underway are mandated to be in 'situational awareness' at all times.
I suspect all military ships are ?

Cargos are often run with minimal and suboptimal crew though - for simple reasons of profit.

Still I have yet to see a destroyer that can't evade a cargo when actively attempting to do so.

A simple investigation on board should reveal the cause.
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  #37  
Old 19 Jun 17, 09:39
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Steering problems or not, I always thought that the larger, less maneuverable vessels had the right-of-way....that and there are more ways than one to communicate a mechanical problem than simply by lights. I can't help but think there's something else to this story....
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  #38  
Old 19 Jun 17, 09:58
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Well USN ship colliding is not exactly unheard of. Not even with merchants. Like the USS Porter did in 2012 - per audio recording of that 2012 incident it seems the incident occurred after some confusion. Lots of traffic - something distracts the crew - and that is it. I'm not saying the same occurred with the USS Fitzgerald but it is something to consider.
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  #39  
Old 19 Jun 17, 10:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose50 View Post
Regardless of who is 'at fault' in this case the blame must be borne by whomever was on watch on the Fitzgerald at the time. US NAVY ships that are underway are mandated to be in 'situational awareness' at all times.
Agreed. While it's increasingly likely that for the sake of 'fault' in the insurance/collision sense, the cargo vessel will be liable, in point of fact the Captain, OOD, and Bridge Watch of the Fitzgerald is also liable for the loss of 7 sailors and damage to their ship. A cargo ship that cannot reach 20kts on a good day shouldn't have been able to run into a DD that can routinely run 30kts plus with a far tighter turning circle, in open waters. Whoever was commanding at that moment, be it the OOD or the Captain himself, should have recognized a potential collision and maneuvered....even hard maneuvering in the last minute or two may have avoided or ameliorated the damage.

And ultimately, the Captain is responsible, because it's his ship. He bears the authority and he bears the responsibility to ensure that his watches are doing their jobs correctly and that the ship is not endangered. That responsibility dates back to the earliest times of the Naval Service.
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  #40  
Old 19 Jun 17, 10:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Agreed. While it's increasingly likely that for the sake of 'fault' in the insurance/collision sense, the cargo vessel will be liable, in point of fact the Captain, OOD, and Bridge Watch of the Fitzgerald is also liable for the loss of 7 sailors and damage to their ship. A cargo ship that cannot reach 20kts on a good day shouldn't have been able to run into a DD that can routinely run 30kts plus with a far tighter turning circle, in open waters. Whoever was commanding at that moment, be it the OOD or the Captain himself, should have recognized a potential collision and maneuvered....even hard maneuvering in the last minute or two may have avoided or ameliorated the damage.
The problem with that is that for a ship size of an Arleigh Burke it takes a while before any action taken will actually start to affect the ship let alone have an meaningful effect on its course or speed. Sure it can go 30 kts but it takes time before the engines spool up (if that is valid term, you know what i mean) let alone before the propellers get the ship going. Same goes with steering.
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  #41  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
The problem with that is that for a ship size of an Arleigh Burke it takes a while before any action taken will actually start to affect the ship let alone have an meaningful effect on its course or speed. Sure it can go 30 kts but it takes time before the engines spool up (if that is valid term, you know what i mean) let alone before the propellers get the ship going. Same goes with steering.
Not so much of a problem especially when they are underway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vih4tGmqjs

What usually happens is one or both ships over correct while trying to avoid hitting each other. We spent a lot of time during the open water navigation course going over this 'problem'.
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  #42  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:14
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Beat me to it ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Not so much of a problem especially when they are underway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vih4tGmqjs

What usually happens is one or both ships over correct while trying to avoid hitting each other. We spent a lot of time during the open water navigation course going over this 'problem'.
... Arleigh Burke's have 4 GE gas turbines, generating well over 100,000 hp, coupled to 2 shafts, pitch control props, and dual rudders. Even at a dead stop they can accelerate from 0 to flank speed in 90 seconds, and stop in 60 seconds, and 600 yards. That's impressive for a ship that size.
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  #43  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Yes, he was. And seven sailors are missing. He's responsible for that also.

And the larger ship has the right of way as the smaller vessel has the advantage in maneuverability.

When I was at Guantanamo in the late 80s the Coral Sea his a Panamanian merchant ship and almost sank her. She came into Guantanamo to dock and was very low in the water. The Coral Sea had a large chunk out of the bow, but was otherwise OK.

A friend of mine was on the MarDet on the ship and told me later that the OOD passed out on the bridge when the collision occurred. He knew he was done.
You are quite correct and I will also add that it is quite clear to me that the USS Fitzgerald was at fault. The Fitzgerald was required to give way under gross tonnage rules and it is also clear to me that she was the give way vessel regardless as she was struck on her starboard side. I said it before and I will say it again, the Navy no longer trains Sailors properly. It is quite possible in this day and age for a Sailor to be promoted to senior ranks without displaying the level of professional ability that should be commensurate with the more senior pay-grade. The Navy has been relentlessly promoting people based primarily on their ability to play political games and brown nose. I clearly do not know for sure if the people that are responsible for this horrible accident are political brown nosers, but it would not surprise me in the least. I will also add that this did not just cost seven Sailors their lives, this collision may very have destined the Fitzgerald for a one way trip to the breakers!
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  #44  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose50 View Post
Regardless of who is 'at fault' in this case the blame must be borne by whomever was on watch on the Fitzgerald at the time. US NAVY ships that are underway are mandated to be in 'situational awareness' at all times.
The Captain will be held accountable, as is the Navy custom and precedent.
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Old 19 Jun 17, 11:39
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I think there might be confusing about propulsion plants on the newer destroyers. They are no longer steam turbine but gas turbines. And as Marmat posted the "spool-up" time is minimal. In addition the variable pitch screws are already at the "egg beater" configuration at cruising speed. Under normal cruising all four turbines are not on-line (at least on the Spurance cans they were not) The following video is probably a good idea what a DDG can do. The video was called doing an emergency breakaway but it really wasn't. And I will guarantee all four turbines were on-line (when you need them you need them) Just the typical "see you later" breakaway. We did it all the time (well as long as the Old Man felt like it....when you got a sports car you got to have fun).

https://youtu.be/Q3cHIYXWhe4
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